The Tercel standard

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larry mcgrath
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Re: The Tercel standard

Post by larry mcgrath »

Arch. We had an old freezer in the basement -- bought 40 years ago-- had the power company do a energy audit on this house---- the worst offender was the freezer ---- 289.00 $ to run for a year. We bought a new one from Cos co for 189.00$ runs for 18.00$ a year. Not ALL old stuff is worth having-- your refers are costing you out the but. Larry
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splatterdog
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Re: The Tercel standard

Post by splatterdog »

One more thing, brake lines. I've been seeing LOTS of domestic trucks and some cars need ALL brake lines in as little as 8 years. My first T4 scrap out was due to structural rust. You could see the muffler from the side while still standing. But, the scrounger in me ended up saving the brake/fuel line bundle! Car died of rust, but line fittings all came out without heat and no corrosion to be concerned about. Half the fittings cracked loose and spun by finger!

I have been seeing more Asian corrosion lately. Height sensing brake valve on a Nissan Frontier, only replacement on the planet was on Ebay.
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keith
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Re: The Tercel standard

Post by keith »

I just had too replace all the brake lines on my 2007 Silverado. Now I know why mechanics charge thousands to do that job. You have to drop the gas tank and lift the body about 4" off the frame on the drivers side.
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Petros
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Re: The Tercel standard

Post by Petros »

in the drive to save production costs I suspect they are using metals with higher scrap content, up to 30 or 40 percent recycled metals. the problem is they also get a lot of impurities recycling scrap metal, and I suspect that make it more susceptible to corrosion.

back in the eighties when I worked for Nissan, we had to get a racing head holomogated with the IMSA racing rules committee. The factory head was made with 30 percent recycled aluminum, and when we pushed the engine to get roughly 400 percent more power of it for racing the 300zx, we started getting internal cracks propagating from the impurities in the metal (we sectioned up used racing heads and had a metallurgy lab take electron microscope pictures of the metal matrix). It also gave me a chance to redesigned the water jacket to improve coolant flow around the combustion chambers. So we showed them a new factory head, and our almost identical head made of better alloy, which externally looked identical (kind of hard to inspect the internal water jacket). They approved it since they determined the changes made it more durable, but did not create a performance advanage (kind of an odd determination since with better durability, you can push the engine for higher output without failure). With the new alloy in the head, we no longer had cracks develop in the head, even in the 500 mile endurance races, running at nearly full throttle the whole time (most of the entrants drop out/DNF before the end of the race). Curious thing was, we did not have to do that with the older L-series engines used in the 510, 610 and the 240, 260, and 280z sports cars, better alloy was used in the production engines. too costly for the car buying public I guess, saved perhaps one dollar on the engine.
'87 Tercel 4wd SR5 (current engine swap project)
'84 Tercel 4wd (daily driver, with on going mods)
'92 Mazda MPV 4wd (wife's daily driver)
'85 Tercel 4wd DLX auto(daughter's daily driver)
'01 Honda Civic (other daughter's daily driver)
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splatterdog
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Re: The Tercel standard

Post by splatterdog »

I guess much of my anger at engineers should have been directed at accountants!
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ARCHINSTL
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Re: The Tercel standard

Post by ARCHINSTL »

splatterdog wrote: Wed Nov 29, 2017 5:33 pm I guess much of my anger at engineers should have been directed at accountants!
YES!
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Re: The Tercel standard

Post by ARCHINSTL »

splatterdog wrote: Wed Nov 29, 2017 5:33 pm I guess much of my anger at engineers should have been directed at accountants!
YES! The most egregious example was with Ford and the Pinto.
Shh - my middle daughter is a CPA - but for a non-profit, and Goldie keeps secrets ...
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"Oh, do not ask, 'What is it?' Let us go and make our visit."
T.S. Eliot - "The Love Song of J. Alfred Prufrock"
"Now and then we had a hope that, if we lived and were good, God would permit us to be pirates."
Mark Twain
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Petros
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Re: The Tercel standard

Post by Petros »

splatterdog wrote: Wed Nov 29, 2017 5:33 pm I guess much of my anger at engineers should have been directed at accountants!
yes, I think so. many years ago when I was still in engineering school I had a summer internship working at airesearch (the people that design and produce turbo chargers). Since high school I had owned several old volvos, a Porsche, several Datsuns, and an old Jeep, but paid for my collage by working on other peoples cars. I come to really hate the cars made in the USA, liked many of the European cars (but not all of them), and learned to love Japanese made cars. Very impressive design, details, performance all in an economic package (back than). I assumed the US car companies were just incompetent, their engineers were not serious car enthusiasts nor very knowledgeable. But at Aireasch I worked with senior automotive engineers who worked for all the big three, and even a few from American motors, and even one from Toyota. I came to realize these were some of the sharpest people I have ever met, very knowledgeable and competent engineers, and real car enthusiasts. At lunch one day I asked my supervisor (who had worked at General Motors), why are US cars are so bad. He took offense at first, but I explained the many well known problems, and he had to admit it was the accountants that made all the decisions. He told me a number of stories about the internal problems. One of my projects for example was assisting ford develop an tubo package for a new model, they wanted a bolt on turbo "option", without making any other changes to the car (no optimizing the performance with cam, fuel injection changes, not even putting in a larger radiator..these were normal changes that both European and Japanese makers would incorporate). the way they got away without putting in a larger radiator was to dump excess fuel when on boost, to cool the engine with fuel!!! to hell with emissions or economy, made me hate Ford. I asked my supervisor about the poor performance, handling etc. He said that the big three knew exactly what the car would feel like, handle, and what its reliability was before they even built the first one. It made me hate all of them even more, because they designed the cars that way on purpose. All of it driven by costs.
I joked with an other engineer once (who had worked at Ford), that they try and squeeze every nickel out of each part. His reaction was shock, he said if you can save a nickle the division VP took you out to lunch. they were in to saving fractions of a cent on every part, and of course it shows in quality and durability. Our ford one ton van had all the plastic marker light housing melt from the 2-3 watt bulbs because they used a very low temp plastic in them to save fraction of a penny in heating costs.

My eyes were opened, they do have some of the best engineers in the world. And most of them also hated the products they were forced to design. All of the descriptions come from the accounting department, and strangely, the perception of quality was up to the marketing department. Like a ministry of propaganda. and upper management is always shocked when long time loyal customers abandon them for good.
'87 Tercel 4wd SR5 (current engine swap project)
'84 Tercel 4wd (daily driver, with on going mods)
'92 Mazda MPV 4wd (wife's daily driver)
'85 Tercel 4wd DLX auto(daughter's daily driver)
'01 Honda Civic (other daughter's daily driver)
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splatterdog
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Re: The Tercel standard

Post by splatterdog »

I do have a serious issue when they design new bolt heads that require yet another set(or sets) of sockets and wrenches. I guess bolt head engineers need to eat too..

I also have jokingly said that car engineering sections must all hate each other, fighting over the same space. It's only been 100,000 times or so I've said- you couldn't give me another fraction of an inch of access? The half hour or less alternator guys must have all retired too.

I do see a lot less brand loyalty these days. Myself included. I don't even know what to recommend anymore as I think every brand has issues. Pick what color you like and don't get too attached!
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Petros
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Re: The Tercel standard

Post by Petros »

I also wonder about the special/new socket heads proliferating in new cars, like it will stop me from going to any Ace hardware and getting the new tip style. do they really think it will discourage do-it-yourselfers? a few years ago my elderly parents gave us their old Buick (with hardly any miles on it), my wife drove it until it fell apart. The air intake sensor had star drive screws with the post in the middle, Ace had this tip, and I replaced the air intake sensor in about 5 min. Did they really think I was going to pay a dealer $200+ to do it for me? fools.

In all the big companies, the internal departments are always having fights over space, cost, routing priorities, etc. When I look at the under hood layout of new cars, I can tell which department "won" the argument. My daughter's civic has the anti-lock brake module right on top in the front of the engine, where you need room to service the belts, seals, water pump etc. the anti-lock brakes NEVER needs servicing, and I am thinking what idiot thought it was a good idea to put that right on top of the stuff that does need to be serviced. It was done by committee. Most of the Toyoto anti-lock brake assembly over in the corner or on the firewall, out of the way. One of the reasons I have switch alliance to Toyota, much easier to service than the hondas.
'87 Tercel 4wd SR5 (current engine swap project)
'84 Tercel 4wd (daily driver, with on going mods)
'92 Mazda MPV 4wd (wife's daily driver)
'85 Tercel 4wd DLX auto(daughter's daily driver)
'01 Honda Civic (other daughter's daily driver)
keith
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Re: The Tercel standard

Post by keith »

Petros wrote: Wed Nov 29, 2017 3:32 pm It also gave me a chance to redesigned the water jacket to improve coolant flow around the combustion chambers. So we showed them a new factory head, and our almost identical head made of better alloy, which externally looked identical (kind of hard to inspect the internal water jacket).
Which alloys were you using? Most cylinder heads use 319 which is the alloy developed for the infamous Chevy Vega. Everybody loved to hate it but it became the standard alloy for the industry. Most racing heads that I have seen use 356.2 which has some Titanium in it. It is about 10 points harder on the Rockwell scale, yet very malleable and crack resistant.

One problem we had with it was that before the cylinder heads were fed into the transfer line that did all the machining, the ingates had to be knocked off. Ingates are little tabs of metal left where the molten metal entered the mold. On a 319 alloy head, just tapping them with a hammer would break them off. On the 356 alloy heads, the ingates would just mush over when hit. They had to be chiseled off.

BTW, the 356.2 alloys used a lot or recycled aluminum too.
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Petros
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Re: The Tercel standard

Post by Petros »

I do not recall the alloy now, it was about 1985, and have been away from that kind of work since than. the behavior of both alloys you describe sounds about right. we used a small custom foundry in Riverside CA that made only racing car parts, mostly for drag racers. The micro scan pictures of production metal samples showed small dark angular crystals that initiated cracks, the quality alloy showed no such structure, but larger uniform light colored aluminum crystals.

though unlike the Vegas, the stock 3.0 Liter Nissan V6 is a very reliable engine and lasts many miles without trouble. Factory output was about 175 as I recall, the turbo was perhaps 225 hp. We were getting about 980 hp out of it by the time we were done tweaking the engine, redesigning the fuel and ignition system, induction and exhaust systems. I also had to redesigned the water pump and cooling system to improve cooling capacity, factory water pumps cavitate above 5500 rpms (fine for a street car), but our engine operating speeds were between 9000-11,000 rpms. you discover all of the short comings of the engine when pushing it to put out 4 or 5 times it nominal production power output.
'87 Tercel 4wd SR5 (current engine swap project)
'84 Tercel 4wd (daily driver, with on going mods)
'92 Mazda MPV 4wd (wife's daily driver)
'85 Tercel 4wd DLX auto(daughter's daily driver)
'01 Honda Civic (other daughter's daily driver)
keith
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Re: The Tercel standard

Post by keith »

Almost all Aluminum engines are made from the 319 alloy. The Vega engine problems weren't from the alloy, it was a design issue. But in GM's defense, it was the first use of this alloy and a lot was learned from it. Later engines benefited from it. I think Mercedes was next to use the alloy and didn't have any issues.

There are casting techniques that are used with all alloys that can have a big effect on the quality of the product. I was fortunate to have worked with the best Aluminum casters in the world.
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Petros
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Re: The Tercel standard

Post by Petros »

I remember the vega, my dad had one when I was about 15, sold it soon after he got it. Nothing but trouble.

the engine was a big mistake, it was an aluminum block, with a cast iron head, and it ran the pistons and rings right in the aluminum with a thin layer of hard plating inbetween. I recall ads they ran in the trade journals, "GM makes the steel sleeves in the aluminum block obsolete!" like they were bragging about the mess they made of it. the thin plating broke down real fast the engine turned into a smoker/oil burner in about one year. I guess it did not occur to them that a thin hard steel coating on a soft aluminum base (with very different thermal properties) was not going to stay attached. You would think a company that large would do some testing, and make sure it was going to work before putting them in production.

there were lots of machine shops offer to fix the problem by putting steel sleeves in it for you. They ate it big time in warranty claims. The vega was such a shame, I always like the looks, but what a complete POS, it was a car designed by committee, and upper management (they were in a rush to put out a small car to compete with the smaller Japanese and European cars flooding into the country, this ill-conceived plan of course only drove loyal GM buyers into the hands of the importers). No one within the GM mega corp would take ownership of it, and it was put together so badly it was falling apart before it even made it to the dealership. I remember driving my dad's Vega with my learners permit, you could not get the seat in the right place to reach the pedals, and not have the steering wheel in your face, or have the shift lever within reach. visibility sucked, handling was really bad (it felt like the steering gear box was attached to the steering wheel with a piece of surgical tubing). And that odd alumn block and cast iron head had its share of head gaskets problems too.

For many years all of the Japanese cars and many of the European cars had cast iron blocks, and aluminum heads with no head gasket problems, but not GM. their first attempt at an all aluminum engine was also a big mistake, too weak, it was the old buick small block v-8, great idea, but badly executed, gave Buick a black eye. Yet now all manufacturers have all aluminum engines with out gasket issues (except perhaps Subaru, what is wrong with them?).

the Vega, and the buick (which was also a family car we also owned years before, before I could drive) were the reasons I looked outside the US for my first car, and never considered owning any American made car again. Though I have owned a few domestic vans and trucks, and one buick given to us, if I had my choices I would now only stick with Japanese brands.
'87 Tercel 4wd SR5 (current engine swap project)
'84 Tercel 4wd (daily driver, with on going mods)
'92 Mazda MPV 4wd (wife's daily driver)
'85 Tercel 4wd DLX auto(daughter's daily driver)
'01 Honda Civic (other daughter's daily driver)
oldfaithful
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Re: The Tercel standard

Post by oldfaithful »

My father had a 1974 Vega and he drove that thing over a hundred thousand miles and he was never one to change oil in anything,I don’t know where I get so anal about oil changes but I faithfully change my oil in all my mowers blowers and cars likely more than I should, but I figure it’s cheap insurance. When Dad retired he didn’t need two cars any more and I always told him I wanted it, so he gave it to me and I put a Small Block 350 Chev motor with a Turbo 400 transmission in it. Yeah the poor old Vega had a bad name but once you put them on V8 Steroids they became a fun little beast.
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