Turbine Engine Technology for Cars

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Typrus
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Post by Typrus »

Awwww... Poor z71s..... lol.
If someone could convince them to bring a revamped version of the 95 over here, they might be surprised how well it would sell. I mean, you can't let Honda dominate the ricing scene.... Them and Mitsu...
I dunno how effective electric would be for ice conditions.. Again, they have massive torque at low RPM's, so might loose traction fairly easily. Though it'd be fun for Rubicon-type offroading.
The military has a diesel-electric hybrid that has individual wheel drive and can go into "silent" mode for a peak of 45 minutes. Its a sweet little honey.
RIP 10-07- 1984 Toyota Tercel SR5 4wd Wagen 6 speed

RIP 04-05- 1986 Toyota Tercel SR5 4wd Wagen 6 speed

1st Terc- 1987 Tercel SR5 4wd Wagon 6-speed, Sadly cubed

1985 Tercel Standard 4wd Wagon w/ 3-speed auto, Living a happy life in Boulder last I knew
GTSSportCoupe
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Post by GTSSportCoupe »

Here is an article on why it didn't go anywhere: <a href='http://www.inc.com/magazine/19980601/939.html' target='_blank'>http://www.inc.com/magazine/19980601/939.html</a>

F&*king auto manufacturers anyhow!! :angry: :angry: There are so many individuals and companies out there who have come up with MUCH better technologies for automobiles, and have been turned away. Why? Because of human greed. Why are we still using an environment killing 100 year old technology when there are so many better technologies available? (Environmentally and performance wise). Rosen just needs to partner with someone who could design the rest of the car (chassis/interior/etc), and start making there own cars.

Ok, thats the end of my rant. <_<
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GTSSportCoupe
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Post by GTSSportCoupe »

Hey guys, as you probably noticed I split all the 'turbine engine' talk out of the previous 'previa overheating' thread into it's own thread. Thought it was a good idea to give this very interesting topic its own thread.
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GTSSportCoupe
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Post by GTSSportCoupe »

Here is another article on it:

<span style='font-size:14pt;line-height:100%'>Hal Rosen's powertrain hybrid </span>

Woodland Hills, CA--Harold Rosen led the team that designed the first geostationary communications satellites ever built. Rosen spent 37 years at Hughes Aircraft Corp. He was awarded more than 50 patents and received many engineering awards, in-cluding the Design News Special A-chievement Award for 1992. Now, funded by his brother Benjamin, chairman and co-founder of Compaq Computer, Harold Rosen is developing a world-beater of a hybrid powertrain.

Rosen Motors' hybrid electric powertrain consists of a turbogenerator, a flywheel-driven motor-generator, electric drive motors, and an electronic control system. The flywheel has a carbon-filament-wound composite cylinder and ring, titanium hub, and steel shaft. Supplied by Capstone Turbine, another company with which the Rosen brothers are involved, the turbogenerator will burn gasoline in a catalytic combustor and also serves as a motor when starting the vehicle.

In the Rosens' powertrain, a dc bus connects all the motor/generator sets. A controller containing both logic and power sections governs all the motor/generator sets and monitors the bus voltage (nominally 400V). In milliseconds, the flywheel-driven generator either adds energy to or subtracts energy from the bus as bus voltage tries to fluctuate.

"In the process of accelerating the car with the drive motors, the flywheel starts slowing a bit," says Harold Rosen. When the controller recognizes the reduction in flywheel speed, "the turbine control system starts adding power to the bus, and that causes the flywheel to charge up," he explains. "It's a proportional control system, and it's a continuous system."

During operation on a test rig or in a vehicle, the electronic controller dynamically blends power from the flywheel-generator and turbo- generator to supply the drive motors. The drive motors are the only components connected directly to the drivetrain. Using a fixed-gear reduction, coupled with the characteristics of an electric drivetrain, result in vehicle acceleration as smooth as that achieved with a continuously variable transmission, according to Rosen Motors.

In the company's current system, the turbogenerator provides a maximum of 30 kW; future versions will utilize a 45-kW (60-hp) unit. The current design goal for flywheel self-discharge time is approximately 1,000 hrs, and the turbogenerator can recharge the flywheel. At maximum charge, the flywheel stores 1 kW-hr; of that energy, 80% can be recovered over the flywheel's operating speed range of 28,000 to 62,000 rpm. It can deliver or accept energy at a maximum rate of 150 kW.

At the present time, work continues on the turbogenerator's catalytic combustor. Until the unit reaches the level of performance desired by Rosen Motors engineers, the turbogenerator will use a conventional combustor.

Early this year, Rosen Motors successfully road-tested its powertrain in a converted 1993 Saturn at Willow Springs racetrack near Edwards Air Force Base. A second car, more of a prototype than the Saturn, is also being built. This latter car, a Mercedes Benz E-Class, has four motor/generators on board. Two drive-motors in the rear wheels function as generators during regenerative braking. Harold Rosen expects to see the E-Class on the road with its hybrid powertrain before the end of 1997.

Rosen and his colleagues say cars equipped with their drivetrain will a-chieve a fuel efficiency of 45 to 80 mpg and be capable of accelerating from 0 to 60 mph in six or seven seconds. They claim their type of hybrid system has many packaging advantages over hybrids that use batteries. "We don't need a purpose-built car," says Rosen, "our powertrain is not too hard to introduce into an existing vehicle."
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Adelard of Bath
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Post by Adelard of Bath »

Hmm yes interesting...mechanical power storage instead of chemical (battery) power storage! sweet! That is the way to go..with today's tech anyway, someday (in my startrek future) batteries will obviously get better and better so someday batteries will be all that is needed..but until then...

anyway I see no reason why electric motors couldn't be awesome on ice....sure they are super-torque, but only if you want them to be...my brother works at a place (german company running a branch in Minneapolis) where their sole purpose in life is to make/sell electric motors and controllers to factories and stuff, designed such that the motors are controlled exactly according to speed, frequency, stopping times, starting times, torque....think about your typical factory assembly line...all those machines are start, stop, start, stop...and they all use super expensive motors and advanced computer controls.
So anyway, simple matter to modulate the power to an electric motor to control the torque...plus super easy to sense if the wheel is starting to slip, merely by reading the load across the motor
blah blah blah
GTSSportCoupe
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Post by GTSSportCoupe »

Adelard of Bath wrote: Hmm yes interesting...mechanical power storage instead of chemical (battery) power storage!  sweet!  That is the way to go..with today's tech anyway, someday (in my startrek future) batteries will obviously get better and better so someday batteries will be all that is needed..but until then...

anyway I see no reason why electric motors couldn't be awesome on ice....sure they are super-torque, but only if you want them to be...my brother works at a place (german company running a branch in Minneapolis) where their sole purpose in life is to make/sell electric motors and controllers to factories and stuff, designed such that the motors are controlled exactly according to speed, frequency, stopping times, starting times, torque....think about your typical factory assembly line...all those machines are start, stop, start, stop...and they all use super expensive motors and advanced computer controls. 
So anyway, simple matter to modulate the power to an electric motor to control the torque...plus super easy to sense if the wheel is starting to slip, merely by reading the load across the motor
blah blah blah
Yup, I've thought about turbine power for cars lots, but the problem of energy storage always comes up. I have always thought in electrical terms, but mechanical energy storage with a super high tech flywheel does make WAY more sense. Basically, that flywheel is the only missing link. Small efficient turbines are in existance ( <a href='http://www.capstoneturbine.com/' target='_blank'>http://www.capstoneturbine.com/</a> ) as are generators, electric motors, and all the electronic controlling elements necessary for the design. It just all needs to be put together (as Rosen did) into a sellable product.

There is no way people could turn down a smallish silent drive system that gets 45-80mpg and can accelerate from 0-60mph in 6 or 7 seconds. Also, there would be no oil changes, no rad leaks, etc. No brake pads as the motors could control braking. Very low or no emissions. Runs on multiple fuel types. It's all good. And it would only get better from here as auto makers began further developing the technology. The same concept can be applied from autos to buses, trains, ships, (and planes already use turbine engines...). OK, now I just need to go talk to someone with lots of money... ;)
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Adelard of Bath
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Post by Adelard of Bath »

Don't let the wrong kinds of people hear you! There are lots and lots of people who stand to lose lots and lots of money if sweet technology becomes viable...
GTSSportCoupe
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Post by GTSSportCoupe »

Adelard of Bath wrote: Don't let the wrong kinds of people hear you!  There are lots and lots of people who stand to lose lots and lots of money if sweet technology becomes viable...
Thats precisely why nothing has happened yet. :angry: Bring'em on! :ph34r:

Yeah, I did some simple calculations using some numbers from the capstone turbine link. They say there turbines need no maintenance for the first 8000 hours of operation, and even then, the first maintenance item is replacing the air filter. With a car traveling an average speed of 40 miles/hour: 8000hrs * 40mph = 320,000miles!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Imagine owning a car that did not need maintenance for the first 15-20 years that you owned it! (although you would have to change airfilters more often in a automobile) Can you imagine the impact of this alone on the industry? I'm thinking that your friendly neighborhood mechanic would be very against turbine engine possibilites, nevermind the manufacturers of OEM and aftermarket auto parts.
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GTSSportCoupe
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Post by GTSSportCoupe »

Possibly the way to make this technology work is to start in the field of motorsports. This seems to be where all the new IC technology starts. Maybe I could start a aftermarket performance company that tosses IC engines and replaces with a psycho turbine electric hybrid. Hmmm...I think I would really like to do this for a living. :)
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Typrus
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Post by Typrus »

Feh.. I hate greed. And besides, ever heard of building faults in to keep the money coming? Dishonest, yes, very much so, but it keeps food on the table for some.
Want intelligence? Keep yourself safely funded for the first 15 years, and at that poin product base overlaps. The first generation dies, so the buyers go back for a new one. And thats for those who wouldn't get sick of the old technology and bodystyle. After you bridge that 15 year hump, you'd be fine. That is, assuming people bought your product.
8000 hours? Thats less than 320,000 or whathaveyou miles... Consider idle-times. Consider stop and go traffic. City-goers would likely be the main candidates for this technology, as it would likely excel at stop-and-go. More regenarative braking, so non-constant generator function. Yes, you use more energy, but it would have the generator running less per drivetime I'd assume. Of course, I am a doofus and am likely missing completely how it works.
As for regenerative braking, you could use the generation resistance down to lower speeds, then effectively reverse the motor to slow er down.
The companies could survive off other car parts just fine. Suspension componants, window lifter problems.. Things like that would keep it alive. Plus maintainance of the electric motors. There could be companies who produced purpose-built drive motors of high powers, better generator parts... There is a lot you can still do to these things.
How does Cummins survive? Their engines very rarely require maintainance beyond oil changes and air filter changes. They survive off selling new engines. There are still functioning Cummins diesel's from their first generation, but they live on nicely. Its in peoples wastefullness. There is always market for new products. People throw aside their VW with 25,000 miles because they like the look of the new model better, or the safety features on that new Volvo.
Remember things like that. Just keep coming out with the "new thing". The thing people are going to jump on because it looks cool or has a lesser chance to self-destruct. Don't release all your technology at once, slowly put it out. Instead of gaining $1,000,000 on your product then not having anything untill your engineers come up with a better thing, gain $1,000,000 on your first generation, release some better part and gain $500,000 then a newer better part for another $450,000.... Its all in the marketing lol
RIP 10-07- 1984 Toyota Tercel SR5 4wd Wagen 6 speed

RIP 04-05- 1986 Toyota Tercel SR5 4wd Wagen 6 speed

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Adelard of Bath
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Post by Adelard of Bath »

Whoa, hey I heard somebody say "volvo"
!!
hehe

Who here remembers the DeLorean? yes my dream car since that movie came out when I was like nine years old...many pictures of me as a kid standing next to DeLoreans!

Anyway I have done lots of research on that car. Despite the fact that the v6 engine was kinda sucky and underpowered, it was an off-the-shelf design by volvo, renault, and peugot. but get this: engine from manufacturer that makes engines that last forever, plus fiberglass chassis, plus stainless steel skin? can we say no rust? that's awesome

But many many factors got together and DeLorean company dind't make it

Which is too bad considering....that guy had at least two more cars on the drawing table, and they were all family vehicles...hey did you konw, that car was NOT designed to be a sports car? that could be why it got alot of critisicm, it LOOKS like a sports car so everyone who drove it was sad that it didnt' zoom zoom. (although with a rear engine and rack and pinion steering, its gotta handle like a cat)
But the car was actually designed for safety....one might notice that the door sills were very high, and the doors were quite thick, and the driver was basically cocooned in the car....all to protect.

Its still no volvo though

I remember when volvo came out with those airbags that shoot around all the side windows to protect you from flying glass. that's just crazy in a good way, those swedes never stop do they
DaveG1
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Post by DaveG1 »

Maybe you guys mentioned it above, but the big issue is containment. The flywheel, to hold the amount of power needed to release the target speeds had to spin REALLY fast. The engineers were trying to engineer a certain factor of safety so that if there was some sort of collision or for some reason the the flywheel came apart it would not send shards of carbon fiber through the passenger space of the car. A fly wheel can be big and slow to hold energy or small and fast, ours was small and fast. One of the challenges was finding a way to hold the energy in a potential burst in a small enough system that allowed for a car to still be a functional car. My job was to rig the test systems for different containment ideas and blow up flywheels at full speed to see if we could capture the energy. My background is not really technical so it was pretty cool to part of the whole program. My friend got me the job. BTW one of the articles mentions the car being driven at Willow Springs, I was the company EMT driving behind in a chase truck in case the thing blew up and tore teh test drivers apart. They are still using all the technology in stationary configurations. The flywheel company is called PentaDyne, my old boss bought all the intellectual rights to the flywheel technology with a couple other of the engineers from the company. They might have a website, not sure. Glad I couold turn you guys on to Rosen, we thought we were the next big thing and we would all be gazillionaires. But, hey, being a beach lifeguard sure doesn't suck either.
Typrus
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Post by Typrus »

lol.
Why not larger and slower? It'd take the same time to build up and store the energy?
Why not borrow from firing ranges? Have a sloping decline that brings the shards into a containment area filled with lots of ground rubber and other energy absorbing materials? If it can stop a high-power 30ot6 round or AK-47 round, I think it could stop chunks of carbon fiber flinging around. Its not like the system would have to take multiple flywheel explosions. It blows once, you replace the system. Or you could armor the system. Use a high-strength steel plating to deflect shards into the pavement (wait.. if it rolls.... decapitated pedestrians is not a good idea) So have it deflect into a thing of carbon fiber of kevlar strands that would slow/catch the pieces? Not a mesh, more a spider-web of strings laced across in a moderately dense pattern, designed so that they either snap (releasing moving energy into the strands and support system) or flex (again, releasing energy)
If they can stop a 120mm Depleted Uranium round with moderatly thin tank armor, you can stop a quarter pound chunk of c.f. moving at high high velocities.
How about a system that combines those, ALONG with a device that floods the chamber with air (creating mass resistance) when it detects a blow-apart?
What about that weak concrete material they use at the end of some runways?

They were testing this near Edwards? Isn't that near Denver or am I confused....
RIP 10-07- 1984 Toyota Tercel SR5 4wd Wagen 6 speed

RIP 04-05- 1986 Toyota Tercel SR5 4wd Wagen 6 speed

1st Terc- 1987 Tercel SR5 4wd Wagon 6-speed, Sadly cubed

1985 Tercel Standard 4wd Wagon w/ 3-speed auto, Living a happy life in Boulder last I knew
DaveG1
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Post by DaveG1 »

Larger and slower was out b/c the idea was to put the drivetrain into an existing car w/o impacting comfort and function in any way. In Europe they are using slow and big in Busses, but you have to have a bus to make it work. W/ small and fast you could have the whole system in the trunk of Benz pretty easy, in fact if you stuffed it way up in there you could still put luggage in the trunk.

We did in fact have a system that was pretty feasible using a thin metal shell wrapped in a thicker Kevlar cocoon. When we blew a flywheel it registered on a seismograph, sounded like a cannon going off and you could feel the shock through the floor. BOOM! Your idea is sound, but space is your limiting factor, the idea is to put all this stuff into an existing chassis and not make the consumer compromise any comforts and make the car haul ass in the process.

In addition to the mere flywheel you had to include all the electronics to make the power tranfer happen and all the stuff to make the flywheel gyroscope in its little world, it had a pretty trick gimbal system to compensate for turning corners and braking and stuff. It was cool, seriously. really cool.

Edwards Air Base is out by Lancaster, north of LA in the Mojave desert. Grat place to ride dirt bikes. They land the space shuttle there. Windy most of the time and lots of military, they fly experimental aircraft there, it was the home of the stealth bomber.
Typrus
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Post by Typrus »

Oh yeah... I have disgraced myself >.< DAMN MY IGNORANCE!!!!
Feh. Who says the system has to be the size of a firing range. But oh well. Why a thin metal shell? Why not thickish? I mean, you don't want to have it weigh 300 lbs, but which is more important- slight compromise in acceleration or huge compromise in a persons life (in case of accident)
RIP 10-07- 1984 Toyota Tercel SR5 4wd Wagen 6 speed

RIP 04-05- 1986 Toyota Tercel SR5 4wd Wagen 6 speed

1st Terc- 1987 Tercel SR5 4wd Wagon 6-speed, Sadly cubed

1985 Tercel Standard 4wd Wagon w/ 3-speed auto, Living a happy life in Boulder last I knew
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