Engine Flushing

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Typrus
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Engine Flushing

Post by Typrus »

So, you can see some flushing techniques in the Sea-Foam writeup, but I think it is an important enough topic to necessitate its own writeup.

So, over time, oils break down. When they do, they lose their ability to keep general gunk (dirt that slipped past the filter, carbon from combustion, broken down parts of seals, metal filings, etc) in suspension. This gunk is deposited in areas of lower oil flow. Valve cover underside, on the rockers, around the cam, the sides of the block, on con-rods, undersides of pistons, ring lands, etc. Not beuno.
****On a side-note, as this is important, this gunk can sometimes cover pre-existing holes or leak points. By removing this gunk, you open up the pre-existing issue and a leak appears.
If you have these weak-spots in seals or gaskets, pre-existing holes, etc, the flush will not cause the leak, it'll just re-expose it. But the gunk in of itself will create more issues 99% of the time.
It also will reduce its actual lubricity. Howso? I think part of it is that once it starts to break down, the lighter elements will boil off and get consumed by the PCV system. Lower lubricity ensues.

One fun one? You can even block oil returns or supplies. Not good.

Another? Sticky rings. Sticky rings can't conform to the shape of the cylinder walls as fast as they need to. Compression pressures are lost. Weaker combustion ensues, Then, part of that combustion pressure leaks by. Even less force.

So. What do we do to help alleviate these issues?
Well, the best step is to use high quality oils and regular oil change intervals.
BTW, I don't want to hear about your 300k mile SBC running Penz. Yes it's possbile, but it's not the norm.

But if the problem is already there, you need to do something about it.

So what can we do?
There are several trains of thought.

The first one is to take off the pan, clean it out (VERY good idea by the way, no matter if you continue down this line or not) clean out the bottom end with some kerosene and an old toothbrush or brass wire brush, take off the valve cover and pick out any goo and scrub it down on the head and in the cover.
While this is great, it's a bit more intense than most are willing to do.

There is always taking off the pan and cover, getting the majority of the goop out, then slapping them back on. Also very good to do.

So if you don't want to go that far into it, you can always do the following.

Go get yourself some NAPA Motor Flush, a cheap oil filter or 2, a change of cheap oil or 2, a can of BG 109 CPR, and a change of high quality oil plus a quart and 2 high quality oil filters. It might be wise to get a new set of drain plug gaskets as well. I highly recommend a few additives for your good oil as well.
BTW, Fram and STP are not high quality oil filters. If you want SAE proven high quality, you need to go to Purolator PureONE (not the standard Purolator) or a NAPA Gold/WIX. If you can get it a bit bigger, go for it. The bigger the better. Heck, I've found a FRAM PH8A filter to fit on the factory filter land. Just barely, but it does. I haven't tried the PureONE equivalent (300001 I think?) yet, but its o-ring is a little bit larger. Maybe too much, but maybe not. If it'll fit, DO IT.
Good oils in my mind are Mobil1, Amsoil, Schaeffers, Valvoline, and Castrol. If I had it my way I'd go Schaeffer's or Valvoline. I like to do Valvoline High Mileage if I can. They make a synthetic blend and a full synthetic. I run the full syn SYNPower or HM-Full Syn in my Camry and it works great.

I'd say use a synth blend or full syn personally. A lot of people say it's pointless, but I'll stick to SAE and third party lab results myself. Not to mention personal experience.

Now about those additives. Don't use any until your engine has 10,000 miles after a rebuild, unless your rebuilder or cam provider recommends otherwise.
I like to recommend a few.
BG MOA. An oil stabilizer that helps to stop the breakdown I talked about. Also has a few anti-wear additives.
Lubromoly MOS2. Straight Molybdenum DiSulphide. Your good friend. It will coat the wear surfaces with a skin of Moly that will help cut friction drastically. It'll also fill in small scoring, pits, and grooves with moly to help smooth the surface out. HIGHLY recommend it.
STP Oil Treatment. Straight Zinc Dialkyl DithioPhosphate. ZDDP. A great anti-shear additive. It will help protect your cam and other high-shear surfaces. Very good additive.



Now to the meat.

If you have some older oil in the crank now, you can do one of 2 things.
One option- Get your current oil all the way hot. Drive it till you're at operating temp. Drain it ASAP from turning it off. As in, IMMEDIATELY if possible. The hotter oil will keep gunk in suspension more effectively.
Other option- Pour in the NAPA Motor Flush and run until hot. If you want to drive til hot, drive very gently. Remember, it is a solvent, and will reduce lubricity. Now, drain it ASAP. Again, THE SOONER THE BETTER.
It hinges off of how much cheap oil you bought. And how many filters.

Change your filter with the cheaper one and pour in a load of cheap oil. If you didn't use the Motor Flush already, do it now. If you did, go to the next step. Again, get it hot gently. Once hot, drain it ASAP. Getting the thought process here?

Now, if you just used the motor flush (thats both processes now) make sure you are loaded up on the cheap oil and a new cheaper filter.
Pour in the can of BG 109 on top of the oil. Fire up and get it hot. With this, you really do need to drive gently. Its a powerful solvent to nuke your deposits. It'll nuke your wear surfaces if you go crazy. Once its hot, I like to run for 10-15 minutes at varying RPM's, but don't go too high.
Once that time is done, DRAIN IT ASAP!!! Heat is your friend here.

I like to run another load of cheap oil with the same filter for 5-10 minutes now to help clear up the rest of the solvent. If you do this, remember to drain hot.

Get your new, good oil filter on and a new drain plug gasket if you so choose. Load up on your good oil. If you choose to use additives, add them before the oil. You don't want to overfill your crankcase. On initial fill-up, I might recommend some ZDDP. Remember, thats the STP Oil Treatment.

Drive for 500-1000 miles. Replace your filter with the other good filter. Here I'd recommend the BG MOA or Lubromoly MOS2. Or both. Fire it up, let the oil light go out, run for another minute or 2, shut it off, wait 10-15 minutes, then check your oil level. If it's low, add more oil.

Now run to your preferred change interval.

Now on change intervals.

If you use conventional, your best protection against future gunk is a 3000 mile oil change.
For synthetic, I'd recommend a change interval of 3000-12,000 miles. Why so high? Modern synthetics are capable of resisting breakdown for that long SO LONG AS you follow a very important rule. Change your oil filter every 3000 miles. Top off. And go. Why? You still have that combustion carbon, metal filings, and dirt getting into the oil. The good oil will keep it in suspension and bring it to the oil filter where it gets deposited. You overfill it and guess what? A little bypass valve open so you still get oil to your bearings, but now its dirty oil, eating up your bearings. Not good.

I'd personally also recommend a dose of MOA every filter change to keep the ball rolling healthily.


If you are willing, do a SeaFoam treatment to your intake before the first oil change.


WARNING- If you do something stupid out of your own actions, I will not be blamed and cannot be blamed. Use your brain. Do what makes sense. If this makes zero difference on your engine, its not because it doesn't work, its either because you didn't have a problem to start with, or you did it wrong. Sorry, but its true.
RIP 10-07- 1984 Toyota Tercel SR5 4wd Wagen 6 speed

RIP 04-05- 1986 Toyota Tercel SR5 4wd Wagen 6 speed

1st Terc- 1987 Tercel SR5 4wd Wagon 6-speed, Sadly cubed

1985 Tercel Standard 4wd Wagon w/ 3-speed auto, Living a happy life in Boulder last I knew
takza
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Re: Engine Flushing

Post by takza »

I've been using the Pure One PL30001 last 2-3 oil changes...gives you bit more oil volume and it is an upgrade filter...normally for a Mustang.
Give a boy a gun-give a biatch a cell phone-and pretty soon you almost got yourself a police state.

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terceldude
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Re: Engine Flushing

Post by terceldude »

You don't warm up your Terc, Typrus? You don't let it idle until at operating temp??? Tsk, tsk, tsk... :x ROYAL PURPLE is the best brand-name in motor oil... It increases your HP and some other things... Read up more about it, lol! :lol:
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Neu
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Re: Engine Flushing

Post by Neu »

I dont usually let my tercel warm up either. I wait until I have full response from my carb and then i go. I usually get this full response by doing a few short bursts with the pedal. The tercel warms up in about a mile anyway, so I dont see any real harm.

Now a 7.2 liter diesel? Yes, let it warm up, because that thing will take 5+ miles to warm up, and that will cause oil starvation.
terceldude
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Re: Engine Flushing

Post by terceldude »

I dont usually let my tercel warm up either. I wait until I have full response from my carb and then i go. I usually get this full response by doing a few short bursts with the pedal. The tercel warms up in about a mile anyway, so I dont see any real harm.

Now a 7.2 liter diesel? Yes, let it warm up, because that thing will take 5+ miles to warm up, and that will cause oil starvation.
TSK TSK TSK!!!
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terkill
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Re: Engine Flushing

Post by terkill »

from experience, smaller engines do not need to be warmed up. my dad's 4.7L durango on the other hand, sounds like ass for a good 2 miles down the road from the house until it picks up. its not needed but its cool to do, i guess. where i live, i cannot start my car and go back inside or else..... said car is gone, so.
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Typrus
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Re: Engine Flushing

Post by Typrus »

Wow you are annoying.
Yes I warmed it up. Good freaking grief. Pay attention before you go accusing and being a nuisance and digging up old posts just to find a reason to criticise.
I would warm it up until the needle moved if it was less than 50F out. Otherwise I'd just drive it gentle and shift below 3000RPM until it was warm.
And for clarification even though I'm sure some people will still be confused after reading the clarification, if it was already warm and had only sat for a while and it was less than 50F, the needle has already moved, so whats the point?
Also, did I note that you let it run for a sec before revving it, to circulate oil? If I didn't, then here it is- let any engine run for at least 10 seconds after the oil light goes off before revving it.


And I've never had challenges with any of our diesels, either of the 7.3L or the 1.9L VW. You just drive it easy until its warm. Don't go mad-crazy on it. You don't have a requisite 5 minute idling just to be able to even think about putting it in gear. The oil system will supply all wear surfaces in good enough time to be able to drive conservatively. That, and if you have a 7.3L Powerstroke, not running a synthetic with that HEUI system is kind of silly in my mind. Argue all you want, I don't give a damn about the opinion that conventionals are "better" or "good enough". If you can offer more protection you should.

Is my mood mirroring much in this post? If so, and it offends you and you are smart enough to be able to think about more than one thing at once, you will accept my apology and move on with your life. So sorry.
RIP 10-07- 1984 Toyota Tercel SR5 4wd Wagen 6 speed

RIP 04-05- 1986 Toyota Tercel SR5 4wd Wagen 6 speed

1st Terc- 1987 Tercel SR5 4wd Wagon 6-speed, Sadly cubed

1985 Tercel Standard 4wd Wagon w/ 3-speed auto, Living a happy life in Boulder last I knew
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Re: Engine Flushing

Post by ARCHINSTL »

Typrus wrote:Wow you are annoying.
NO !
:wink: :lol: :wink:
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splatterdog
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Re: Engine Flushing

Post by splatterdog »

I wish I still lived "at home".

I would have time to fully warm up and to drive 50mph or less all the time. I might even throw away my scraper.

Oh wait, idling is one of the worst things you can do to a car.....

If it's sub-zero I will give it 5 minutes though. Mainly to loosen up the molasses gear oil.

Just going easy until it's at least half way to op temp is my routine.

Of course anyone else can do whatever they want.
Typrus
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Re: Engine Flushing

Post by Typrus »

Unless your car has a high-idle feature, and one that works, extended periods of idling at low speeds can subject the engine to low oil pressures increasing the chances of bearing and cylinder wall damage. When cold, the thicker oil offers extra dampening force, lowering the effects, but once warmer, the damage can slowly add up. The high-idle feature is there not only to help heat up quicker, but to increase oil pressures allowing for the added degree of safety. Often time as little as 500RPM can make all the difference and bring the oil pump up to sufficient efficiency to supply effective pressures. The high idle can range anywhere from an added 500RPM all the way to nearly 3000 extra RPM (our Tercs have a rather high high-idle RPM themselves) Where our Powerstrokes go up about 600RPM. The Passat is only about 3-500 RPM.

By using a fully synthetic oil you add an extra degree of protection to your engine by decreasing the amount by which temperature effects viscocity, therby allowing the oil to stay thinner in cooler temperatures, and thicker in hotter temps.
RIP 10-07- 1984 Toyota Tercel SR5 4wd Wagen 6 speed

RIP 04-05- 1986 Toyota Tercel SR5 4wd Wagen 6 speed

1st Terc- 1987 Tercel SR5 4wd Wagon 6-speed, Sadly cubed

1985 Tercel Standard 4wd Wagon w/ 3-speed auto, Living a happy life in Boulder last I knew
toughtercel
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Re: Engine Flushing

Post by toughtercel »

at first i kind agree with "TYPRUS" about warm up for few min till the CARBUATOR get kick in , so you can have smooth driving , remember they are still have "cold chocK " that was since way back 1920's or who knows , for example, if late for work, in a hurry start the car wait 30 sec or less then take off but later it causeing sound like brrraahh, puuuutt , puuuttt , braaahhhh ... continue till fully warm up , whole body making bounching back and forth , then you making all the viewer(people) think tercel 4WD are garbage car , welllll , beside it unhealty for the motor too .

reason about " flushing ", i only did once , drain oil and add diesel fuel (3 liters) ran it for few min , not too long (less 5 min) helps get rid off water and others , secondly remove valve cover and oil pan (if you can) clean out and poke something into oil gallary which stuff fall to oil pan for better oil flow then rinse out .
most important change your oil/oil filter every 5,000km/3,800miles no matter what , it way cheaper than repair/replace motor and more time joy driving .
takza
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Re: Engine Flushing

Post by takza »

I put a pint of kerosene in the oil and idle it for 15 mins before each change....comes out pretty dark. And before that I clean the carbon using a pint of water with a teaspoon of Mystery Oil...in an old dishwashing bottle with the spout. Just squirt slowly in the carb and keep the revs up around 2K.
Give a boy a gun-give a biatch a cell phone-and pretty soon you almost got yourself a police state.

Orwell said: War is peace! Freedom is slavery. Ignorance is strength...

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Typrus
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Re: Engine Flushing

Post by Typrus »

Just to re-cover this...

As a professional technician, I still would highly recommend a good flushing procedure at a regular interval. Sticky rings can be a big deal here, especially with "oops, I forgot to change my oil..... 6000 miles ago" or habitual short-tripping.

To add to this, I'll use my 95 Camry as testimony.
I was living on a dirt road right after I got married and had my intake boot tear do to failing engine mounts. How long it went for, I'm not sure. What made me notice a problem was the sudden appearance of a burning oil smell. When I opened my hood (a habit I need to get better about... It's hard to be motivated to do it yourself when you do it for a living) I found my dipstick was getting pushed out by blowby gasses. I tried a PCV first and confirmed my vent tube was clear. After this I decided to try my BG 109 flush with a Sea-Foam top-end treatment. After I did this, no more dipstick ejection. That was 20,000 miles ago and she still runs as well as a 5SFE can be expected to.

No, flushing your engine will not "un-dust" your cylinders or rings, but if there are deposits in the ring lands preventing proper tension, it can help there.
RIP 10-07- 1984 Toyota Tercel SR5 4wd Wagen 6 speed

RIP 04-05- 1986 Toyota Tercel SR5 4wd Wagen 6 speed

1st Terc- 1987 Tercel SR5 4wd Wagon 6-speed, Sadly cubed

1985 Tercel Standard 4wd Wagon w/ 3-speed auto, Living a happy life in Boulder last I knew
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