Timing issue?

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burtonridr
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My tercel:: 1987 Toyota Tercel

Timing issue?

Post by burtonridr »

I just bought a 1987 tercel, I tried using a timing light the other day to time the ignition. The timing mark is WAY off.... I have to advance the timing nearly all the way to get it to run right.

If I retard the timing all the way, the timing mark shows that the timing is advanced by 10 degrees or more.

Doesnt this mean that the timing belt is off a notch?

What is the easiest way to break the crank bolt loose?
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Neu
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Re: Timing issue?

Post by Neu »

i'mganna say a long, long wrench would do it.

but a impact wrench would be best.

If you could use a cheater bar and just smack it really hard and fast that would work, maybe.


Or just throw it in gear and wrench on it.
burtonridr
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Re: Timing issue?

Post by burtonridr »

But does this problem sound like its a timing issue?

Its really weired, my car has some strange symptoms. I think there might be more than one cause to the problem...

-It starts easily, I mean it fires up every time instantly hot or cold (even like 28 degrees cold)
-It idles a bit rough
-It slightly stumbles on excelleration. It use to do it a lot, but after fixing the vacuum routing and doing my best to tinker with the
timing it just does it slightly. I dunno maybe the timing is just off a hair.
-It is getting great decent mileage, I get 27-30 around town. I dont know if it is running rich or not...
-I dont think there is a vacuum leak anywhere, I tried spray starter fluid on the hoses while it was running.
-The timing light shows the timing is way off... but runs ok...
-The spark plugs area nice tan color when I check them.

Hmm what other information can I give you about the car....

I recently have replaced; the air filter, spark plugs, plug wires and rotor, fuel filter, oil change, ran sea foam through the gas tank, valve lash adjustment, checked the vacuum routing to find atleast 5 hoses were mis-routed... I think that is it.

The compression on the cylinders are all about 120 psi, one of them took longer to build pressure however... I dont know what to think of that.

Please help me out if something stands out in your mind, I'm currently just checking everything because I'm not sure where to start.
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Neu
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Re: Timing issue?

Post by Neu »

Are you sure you're using the timing light right? It should be hooked to cylinder one, the closest to the grill/radiator of the engine.

It should go to the left, so say 15degrees LEFT of 0 degrees on the timing cover.

All vaccuum hoses to the distributor should be disconnected and plugged when doing this.

Idle should be around 900/1000 rpm when doing the timing, if it isn't you should adjust that.

You may have to pull the distributor OUT and rotate it a little ways to get it to actually be right. The car should be off for that.



It sounds like someone did the head but didn't do the timing marks on it. If you pull the timing cover off you should be able to set it to TDC (top dead center) on the head, AND make sure it's TDC on the crank pulley too. then insert the distributor (I can't remember the way it's supposed to be, but it's supposed to be on cylinder 1 i know that, the distributor that is).

It's not that complicated, I just haven't done it for a while.

Good luck
keith
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Re: Timing issue?

Post by keith »

The easiest way to remove the crank pulley is to put a long breaker bar on it and wedge it against part of the frame. Then hit the starter for just a moment.

As for checking the timing, pull the top timing cover and turn the engine until the cam timing marks line up. See the FSM for a picture of the marks. Then check to see if the timing mark on the pulley lines up with the 0°TDC mark on the lower timing belt cover. If it doesn't, then you are going to have to go in further and pull the lower timing cover and check the marks on the lower timing gear.

If the marks do line up, then pull the distributor cap and see if the rotor is pointing directly at the No 1 post on the cap. If it isn't then pull the distributor and line up the shaft gear. Turn the rotor till its near where the No 1 post should be with the cap on, on the, the pin that holds it in place should line up with a mark on the body of the distributor.

Image

Then insert the distributor. Turn the engine so that the timing mark on the pulley lines up with the 5°BTDC mark on the lower timing belt cover, then turn the distributor body till the ignitor lines up with a vane like this.

Image

After you tighten everything down, start the engine, the timing light should show the timing mark at 13° BTDC with the vacuum lines connected, 5° without.
Last edited by keith on Tue Sep 02, 2008 6:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Timing issue?

Post by ARCHINSTL »

keith - when are you getting another Wagon? Great pix!
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4wdchico
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Re: Timing issue?

Post by 4wdchico »

burtonridr wrote:I just bought a 1987 tercel, I tried using a timing light the other day to time the ignition. The timing mark is WAY off.... I have to advance the timing nearly all the way to get it to run right.

If I retard the timing all the way, the timing mark shows that the timing is advanced by 10 degrees or more.

Doesnt this mean that the timing belt is off a notch?

What is the easiest way to break the crank bolt loose?
Did you get this fixed? Sounds like it is possible that the mechanical advance in your distributor could be stuck at full advance. It would really explain what is going on with your car.
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Re: Timing issue?

Post by Petros »

It is easy enough to verify the timing mark is at TDC; take out the number 1 spark plug and either using a flash light or something soft like a chop stick in the spark plug hole and turn the engine until it is exactly at TDC based on piston position (easiest if you remove all the spark plugs). Sometimes the rubber bonding on the front pully damper lets loose and the outer ring with the timing marks on it can slide around, it is rare but it does happen. If this is the case you have to get a new one (or one from a wrecking yard).

Are you setting the timing with the vac advance disconnected with vac line plugged? Also make sure your vac and mech advance is returning all the way. verify your putting the timing light on the right wire.

Good luck.
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tercelwill
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Re: Timing issue?

Post by tercelwill »

Make sure you are angling the timing light right. think like you're shooting a rifle and your goal is to shoot directly along the timing mark. It's more of an art than you might think. also make sure to disable the advance.

Impact wrenches are best but they have failed me before. for the crank pulley the only way I've been able to it is by taking the biggest open end wrench you can find and slide it in the pulley slot with the other end wedged on something solid like a frame rail and pulling it with a breaker bar. Hopefully the bolt breaks loose before you back does. Use good tools. it's a great way to beat up your hands when the cheap wrench brakes.

Do not use the starter bump method or transmission in gear method!

these bolts are on unbelievably tight and flywheel teeth are easy to break. It can take over 300 ft Lbs to break the crank bolt and putting that much strain on your transmission is not a good idea.
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Re: Timing issue?

Post by takza »

I pull the starter and find a c-clamp that will clamp onto the flywheel (not the teeth) and also fit into the starter hole....works real well.
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dstan
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Re: Timing issue?

Post by dstan »

I replaced my vac advance today. now it seems to be advancing too much! when i pull the tubes off of the vac advance it idles at around 800 or 850 or so, and the advance is set to 5 degrees. when i reconnect the tubes it advances to somewhere between 20 and 25 degrees and the idle jumps to around 1000-1200. loosening the idle screw doesn't have any effect. what is up with that? it should just go to around 13...

could i have attached the vac advance to the distributor in a way that causes it to pull further?

ohhh -- i should mention -- there was a jet or something which was inline on a tube that connected something on the carb to a T connection with one of the two metal tubes that connect, ultimately, to the vac advance. but it was melted up and non-functional when i got the car. the connection was severed. now i have just gotten rid of that thing and connected the carb to that T connection on the metal tube.

any thoughts? what the hell is that jet supposed to do anyway, if it is supposed to allow air to flow freely in both directions?
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Re: Timing issue?

Post by takza »

Some are restrictors that slow the flow and some are one way valves? Probably need it.
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dstan
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Re: Timing issue?

Post by dstan »

Thanks for the reply.

Yeah. I should mention, also, that this jet valve in question sits inline in a vac tube that comes out of, i think, the diaphram that is connected to the linkage (? the throttle thing...). it is on the right side of the carb when facing the car from the front. and it tees into one of the metal tubes as they run alongside the left of the valve cover, in between the valve cover and the carb. probably should just take a picture... but anywho...

lastly, when i was at a junkyard looking for a functional vac advance (and failing) i was able to grab a bunch of check valves and such. two of them are what i think are referred to as the jet in Chilton's (they are not blackish and orangish, but yellowish and yellowish). yet neither of them would push air through when pressurized on either side. they would, however, pull air through in a way that would more or less linearly drain a vacuum when i applied one. and this too was true of both sides, and on both things that i am referring to as a jet...

i will throw one of them on their this afternoon and see what happens... if only i had another vac gauge then i could see if it was simply a vac transmitting valve in disguise... hope i didn't hurt it by applying pressure...
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Re: Timing issue?

Post by ARCHINSTL »

You've probably done this already, but - check the FSM at the top of every page here - download it as well. There are testing procedures in the emissions section on the check valves. Also look in the Repair Guides Forum here: There is a color-coded sticky on the vac diagrams - for Federal vehicles; if you have a CA or Canadian vehicle there are diagrams in the FSM.
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dstan
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Re: Timing issue?

Post by dstan »

thanks for the reply.

SOOOOOOOO.... i have figured out what was going on: the two tubes that go to the vacuum advance were switched. drrrrrrrrr. that is, each was plugged in where the other should have been. when i replaced the vac i had simply copied what was already there. but what was there was incorrect.

before correcting that problem, as i said above, the advance with vacuum plugged in was actually at 30.0 degrees. after switching the tubes it was 13.0.

that certainly made me happy.

i want to note for completeness that, before it occurred to me to try switching the vac tubes, i did install the jet, or whatever it is, which i had grabbed off a junkyard tercel (or corolla it might have been), and it did not appear to do anything to the timing. now that the tubes are in the correct locations, the jet remains there. i suspect that were i to remove it, the advance at idle would not change. but i suspect it would alter the dynamic advance adjustment (the role of the vac advance) in some way because it seems that its function is to slow the pace of changes in vacuum in order to iron out fluctuations that somehow or another are inherent in the system. then again, maybe it is just there for added flair.

in any case, this particular case is closed. thanks for the thoughts.
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