The Brake thred.

Post by **ARCHINSTL** » Tue Dec 27, 2005 7:37 pm

Advance has a number of different branded rear drums from $25 to $55 each - dunno the difference, though. I would imagine most stores would have the same ranges as well. The ones for the 4WD apparently fit '87-'90 Corollas as well.
Tom M.

takza · Post by **takza** » Wed Dec 28, 2005 4:00 am

Sounds like China got around to making some???

Post by **ARCHINSTL** » Wed Dec 28, 2005 1:24 pm

The brands of the drums are: Wearever, Raybestos, Beck/Arnley, and Bendix.
Five models are shown for the 4WD and seven for the 2WD (plus more for the sedan) ! ! !
No country of origin listed, though.
Tom M.

Fingers · Post by **Fingers** » Wed Dec 28, 2005 9:30 pm

Braking thingies....

Switch to semi-metallic pads. The organics are the worst for brake fade, while semi's brake BETTER the warmer they get. So a good semi-metallic pad. I delivered pizzas in our killer Midwest summers, and after the pad switch, my braking was much improved.

I haven't looked into it yet, but the bolt pattern/hub on the AE92 GTS are the same, haven't measured offsets though. The rear discs on the GTS, at least the 88-89 are almost identical to the fronts on our cars, the Tercs have about a 1/16th larger diameter (wish I would have known this, they fit fine, and are $10 less than the GTS part). I will look into the fronts after I get the 'Rolla on stands and pull the halvsies. I do know they have similar strut setups, so it could be a possibility.

Make sure you turn your rotors at every brake job. This gets any glazing off of the surface, which will also help to decrease fade. Do the drums too! Plus, this will eliminate pulsations due to warpage. They should be good to turn around 2 times, as long as you didn't completely destroy them.

Wasn't there someone on here who did a conversion, with very little modification, using the discs, calipers, and valve/master cylinder off of an Corolla FX16?

Sorry if I am just rambling, or repeating, but I am bushed mentally.

As far as rear ends go, isn't there also a post that states that an older RX7 rear end will bolt up with little modification, and most had the same gear ratio? I know you can find disc setups for those cars.

OK, I'm done. Picking my brain for brake stuff is a pain in the rear....

Fingers

Gasoline Fumes · Post by **Gasoline Fumes** » Wed Dec 28, 2005 9:44 pm

Fingers wrote:Wasn't there someone on here who did a conversion, with very little modification, using the discs, calipers, and valve/master cylinder off of an Corolla FX16?

My friend and I put the FX16 rear suspension and disc brakes on a 1986 Tercel hatchback. Bolts right on, but not on a 4WD. We never did get around to a front brake upgrade or changing any other brake parts like the proportioning valve, master cylinder, etc.

Gasoline Fumes · Post by **Gasoline Fumes** » Wed Dec 28, 2005 9:46 pm

takza wrote:Sounds like China got around to making some???

What don't they make? I have a small American flag made in China!

Typrus · Post by **Typrus** » Thu Dec 29, 2005 5:07 pm

Ugh... Had to reboot browser 4 times to get it to work... Now I have to weed out my unread posts....
ANYWAY.......

I'm guessing the x number indicates either a bolt pattern or a hub measure. I wouldn't think that it'd be wise to mix and match. I suppose more research is in order.

Remember, an FX16 is FWD.

Another consideration regarding the Tacoma brakes. How will you fit the bearings in and yet have them still run the Tercel CV joints? I suppose you could have something pressed in, then press the bearing in the special "sleeve", but how safe is that? Welding could lead to detrimental misbalancing.

Fading is DRASTICALLY reduced when you have vented versus solid rotors. I think its for 2 reasons. A) There is more metal to absorb heat, B) More heat can escape more quickly making room for... More heat!
Doesn't cryo'ing involve more than just a Liquid Nitrogen (or whichever) dip? If it's that easy, then hell, I'll go for it! Well, might go for it... Maybe... Someday... lol

You need also to consider how grabby Tacoma brakes would be. Not in what I described, i.e. the locking up, but how quickly they started slowing you. I dunno if it'd be uncomfortably so, or what, but its just a thought to consider.

It might be good to find one of those styles of drums with the ribs on it? You know, for cooling purposes.

Semi's brake better when warmer, not hotter. Nothing improves all the way up through the heat range. Semi's hate the cold, and dislike the hot. If you keep it in their midrange, they will grab hard all day. Ceramics and carbon fiber similarly. And as I had heard it, it was the Paseo calipers and Tercel rotors? I dunno. If you can do later Tercel calipers and rotors, then there are about 12 90's Tercels sitting in local junkers waiting to be shredded.

The AE86 has a slightly bigger bolt spec I believe... Dunno the exact numbers for it, but ours are 100x4 mm. I think the Corolla's are 115.5x4 or something. I don't think they are the same as the hard-core RWD'ers like the Supra and Cressida. They are something like 135x4 in the older models. Then they switched to 5-bolt. Something like the Corolla, assuming that the GTS and FX-16 are the same bolt spec, would be cool because we could nab the rears off the GTS and fronts off a FX-16. Assuming that the ratio of front to rear rotor size is similar on either. Well heck, we could just take the rear axle off a GTS and save ourselves the issue of finding mounting points.

If you wanted all-around independant suspension, you could mod the front to accept Supra rotors and rims and find a way to install a Supra rear-end. You could enjoy a significant lowering effect and a very wide array of aftermarket rear-axle joys, like Limited Slip "Drift"erentials, "Big Brake" setups (Like you'd need it after the upgrade that Supra brakes alone would be), stronger half-shafts, LOTS of rims of various styles to choose from.... The list goes on. And you could handle more power than the Terc would ever see. Oh yeah, and your handling would likely be greatly improved.

You know, it's kind of hard to do with such a small-displacement engine, but you might want to try engine braking. Its where you sift down and let the clutch out just enough to let the revs hit fairly high, but with no pressure on the throttle. The vacuum generated behind the throttle plates slows you down somewhat. Oh course, then your clutch greatly suffers..

SMALLER TIRES! Smaller tires would likely help your fuel economy and braking a good deal considering how much stop/go you do. Smaller wheels are easier to get spinning/stop. That means that your engine will hit higher RPM's at speed, so if the majority of your driving is highway, smaller tires will hurt you fairly bad. Too small and you'll look like a fool though.

COMPLETELY OUT THERE IDEA= Air brake. A 2'x5' metal sheet rigged to hydraulics to pop up when you flip a switch. Lol.

Here's a simple thing to go have done- Go get a good pair of pads and a good pair of shoes installed and while its being done, have your brakes lines/reservoir/master cylinder..... Everything power flushed with a good brakeline cleaning solution (if such a thing exists) and have the fluid replaced with equal or higher quality fluid. It'll help even if you just use a equal quality brake fluid.
Old brake fluid tends to absorb moisture (amongst other things) and gets a little more likely to boil off, which creates gas. Gas is compressable where liquid is not. That CAN be part of fade. Something to keep in mind.

Finder349 · Post by **Finder349** » Thu Dec 29, 2005 5:53 pm

I will have to check the bolt pattern on my AE82. I think it is the same iff not smaller. I really do think 4x100 though. the AE86 I do not know. Seems I may go with the vented setup for this round for the front. Whatever the appropreat parts are from the paseo and tercel. I will check back on a couple of the other posts and make sure first. I will post any corrections I find if any exist.

You make many good points on the Tacoma brakes but still I will wonder. It seems the person that did to this is either not around anymore or they are not willing to share. Kinda sad.

Maybe the wing can work in such a manner that it lifts some of the wait off the car. That way there is less contact pressure on the ground and the brakes will not be able to work so hard but instead will lockup. In this manner it could help keep the heat down. I like your ideas.

The braking system flush will be a must regardless of what I do with the car. I am sure that boiling is taking place to have THAT much fade. I have the synthetic fluid already. Supposed to be good to over 500 degrees F.

I really want to get disks on the back though I do understand the concerns that go with it. This will just have to be a learning experiance in the end.

Tt is short today and I am sure I missed some stuff but this will have to do for now.

Calvin

Gasoline Fumes · Post by **Gasoline Fumes** » Thu Dec 29, 2005 11:51 pm

Typrus wrote:The AE86 has a slightly bigger bolt spec I believe... Dunno the exact numbers for it, but ours are 100x4 mm. I think the Corolla's are 115.5x4 or something.

It's 114.3mm. Used on older Toyotas, older Nissans, Hyundais, Mitsubishis, Suzukis. Seems like a weird number until you convert it to inches. It's actually 4.5 inches. The easiest thing to do if you end up with 4x100mm in the front and 4x114.3mm in the rear is to just get a set of aftermarket wheels with dual bolt patterns.

takza · Post by **takza** » Fri Dec 30, 2005 7:24 am

Fingers wrote:Braking thingies....

Switch to semi-metallic pads. The organics are the worst for brake fade, while semi's brake BETTER the warmer they get. So a good semi-metallic pad. I delivered pizzas in our killer Midwest summers, and after the pad switch, my braking was much improved.

Make sure you turn your rotors at every brake job. This gets any glazing off of the surface, which will also help to decrease fade. Do the drums too! Plus, this will eliminate pulsations due to warpage. They should be good to turn around 2 times, as long as you didn't completely destroy them.

Fingers

Does make a big difference as to which pad or shoe you use and the condition of the rotors/drums.

In most cases it doesn't pay to have the rotors turned...costs almost as much for that as buying new ones...they remove a lot of metal...leave a rough surface.

For the rotors...take a small chunk of planed wood...staple some 120 grit wet/dry paper over it and carefully use a circular motion and evenly rough up the surfaces (with water) ...taking most of the higher ridges off. Do it evenly.

Typrus · Post by **Typrus** » Fri Dec 30, 2005 11:09 am

My local parts store wants $69/per for the 96 Paseo Calipers...
They want $37.77 for a front axle set of OEM semi's.
They want I believe $18/per for the OEM rotors.
The guy said that he'd hold his vote more towards the OEM guys than the store's producer.

Those pads are bloody beefy!! Almost 3/4 inch thick...

I neglected to ask about a AE86 full rear axle.....

Takza... Brilliant point! Me=Dunce! My mom's has those dual-pattern Koenigs, 100 and 114.3.... The car itself is a 100.

Well, if I think of anything significant I'll let you know.... lol

Fingers · Post by **Fingers** » Sat Dec 31, 2005 3:27 am

Alright idiots.....

I have no problems with semi's in the 103 degree heat of the summer. Yeah, they will fade if you ride them constantly down a hill. Any brake setup cannot solve people who drive like a ignoramus. Let's have some sense. Pump them going down a big hill, and they will cool sufficiently to prevent fade. Downshift for gods sake. You guys all have manuals anyway, I don't and I have no problems.

And as far as turning rotors and drums go, it may be cheaper to replace the rotors, but obviosly not the drums. And, on average, to turn a non-abused rotor or drum they take off between 0.004 and 0.007 inches of material. And if you go to a good shop, they will do a final cut and a non-directional finish, to prevent skipping and such. Hey, you can believe what you want, but don't go providing false information if you don't know what you are talking about.

And smaller tires will DECREASE your fuel economy. Sure it may take less to get them moving, but your engine will have to turn the wheels more revolutions to attain the same speed. More tire revolutions=more RPMs for the engine. Bigger tires will increase your gas mileage due to the inverse of the afforementioned ratio.

Sorry if I seem kinda bitchy, but gosh-derndit, this is my work, I went to school and took SAE tests for this stuff. Billy-Back yard crap just is not needed in a forum to try to help people. Learn before you get your fingers typing....

Fingers

takza · Post by **takza** » Sat Dec 31, 2005 4:46 am

There is a difference between driving a full sized bus with all drum brakes in the mountains and the Tercel wagon.

As I found out quick enough with the bus...I had to approach serious downhills with a LOT of caution...keep the gear in 3rd or 2nd...use the brakes in a pattern....let it run up to a certain speed...maybe 35 mph...slow down to 20-25...let it run back up to 35...do this over and over till down. If you didn't do things this way...you'd be halfway down the hill and have NO brakes to speak of. I didn't really have a lot of weight in it either. Don't buy a bus without front calipers?

With the Tercel and a lot of weight for it's size (600-700 lbs)....I didn't exactly ride the brakes...but had no fading problems dropping 3-4000 feet....did keep it in a lower gear though...speed limit was 35 mph or so. Noticed that the temp gauge was way below normal range due to air cooling the engine by the time I was down the hill.

When I put new drums on the Tercel...I found that the old ones were turned a good bit over the limit...with one shoe on each wheel worn on one end.

With drum brakes...even a collection of brake dust in them can cause spotty behavior and roughness.

Final opinion? Unless you have oversized brakes on a car...you do need to use engine braking...you can't just ride the brakes.

The rear brakes need to be up to snuff...they help a lot.

Typrus · Post by **Typrus** » Sat Dec 31, 2005 4:03 pm

Okay, whether I sound like an idiot or not, I frankly don't give a damn what you think. Well, lets see..... Did I explain engine braking? Well wow! I must know about that! Hot damn! Living in the mountains just MIGHT account for something!
Think about it. Put your bike in a higher gear. Try to start from a stop. Its hard to do, isn't it? Sure used a good bit of energy, didn't it? Well, I wonder if PERHAPS the same thing follows over to bigger/smaller tires which, if I'm not so utterly stupid and ignorant, means your ENGINE (similar to the muscles in your leg on a bicycle) has to work harder to get bigger tires spinning. If I'm going 4 miles without a stop, I want that higher gear. Sure, I use a lot of energy starting, but it settles down when up to speed. No problem. But what if I'm going 1000 feet, stopping, starting, stopping, starting, stopping, starting.... I JUST MIGHT find it easier to use a lower gear so I can get started a little easier. It'll be harder to maintain a higher top speed without consuming a lot of energy, true enough, but to get started it will be easier.

Aside from that, this is a brake "thred" not a tire size one.

On a final note in this little rant- If reading through lots and lots of articles, books, watching tons of History, Discovery/TLC (before they went frickin watch me bitch at my son to finish the bike/home improvement) Discovery Health, National Geographic... From ages 4 to now, its that PERHAPS a text book and a statistical figure can give you guidelines or a relative idea, but not be exactly how it works in real life. A Real life employment of some wacky thing that declares that EVERYTHING must follow its path of thought will likely prove it partially wrong.

Sorry to derail the thread for a moment there, but I do not like being called an idiot ignoramus by ANYBODY least of all someone who would tell me to do the things I'm doing as if I wasn't and didn't.

Typrus · Post by **Typrus** » Fri Jan 13, 2006 1:48 pm

I checked random Tacoma brakes at the Salvage.......... About as wide as my 11" paper. Didn't guage thickness or check a T100, let alone a 4wd (as in the un-named 80's trucks).

Sorry I exploded on you, but I go off what I want to know, what I know, or what I see. I live in the mountains, and there are just some hills and situations where engine braking isn't enough, and you have to use the brakes. Kind of the point being that it may be easy to maintain healthy speed, but what if a deer/child/pet/car get/jump out in front of you? Hot, fadey brakes won't grab very well, and could mean the difference between life or death. We have semi's in our Excursion and truck, and fade is still an issue, ESPECIALLY when towing. Our Passat has Semi's and it doesn't like the trek up over I-70 very much.

Based on the bahavior I have seen out of semi's and organics, I would grab a semi ANY day for ANY use. But I honestly can say that they WILL fade, and may yield unsatisfactory results for some people. If you are driving an empty car around the city, I really doubt you'll see a whole lot of fade. If you have a car loaded up with newspaper, firewood, furniture, or whatever and hit the hills, you may be in for a very scarey ride. And all factors in between.

And please. Realize that just because you have one result/behavior, does not mean the world entire will see the same thing.

Oh yeah. Think of this- I see temps hitting as low as NEGATIVE 30 F in the winter, and I've seen as high as 118 F in the summer. I drive, my daily drive, on roads varying from 25 to 55mph speed limits. I see 6-mile stopless roads, and 1/4 miles bursts between lights.
Though I don't take my experience as all-inclusive, I must say, I have a pretty good idea of behavior through differing considtions.

Hope I haven't caused any sort of permanant grudge?