'84 WAGON REBUILD

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Yaut
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My tercel:: 1985 Toyota Tercel 4WD automatic, lifted 1.5", 15 inch wheels

Re: '84 WAGON REBUILD

Post by Yaut » Wed Feb 13, 2019 10:37 pm

As Petros said, a suspension lift can cause C/V issues if much more than an inch. Mine is lifted about 1.5inches in the front with some simple fabricated strut hat spacers. I recommend lifting the back with some taller springs and longer shocks instead of air shocks as it will preserve your ride comfort better as well as likely being easier on the suspension overall. I was able to fit some 15" wheels with 205/70/15 tires comfortably, however, they do rub the inner fender when making sharp turns so installing a small rack limiter is a good idea. Some CRR-83-5641 wheels from Summit bolt up nicely https://www.summitracing.com/parts/crr-83-5641 With the combination of a suspension lift and much larger tires, I'd estimate I gained about 3 inches. If someone gave me some height specs for an original car, I could probably measure mine and report back. I believe that is about the limit of a practical lift on these cars without serious modifications. A benefit of the larger tires is a better engine rpm at highway speeds but it does reduce torque for sure. A 4AC engine or Weber carb (neither of which I have yet) is not a bad idea. There is no point in replacing the rear drums with discs. The car doesn't weigh enough to benefit from it in my opinion.

This is the result of my lift. While it doesn't look like much in the photo, it did give a substantial amount of clearance. I am able to easily slide under the car and work on it.
2018-12-16 16.45.29.jpg
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'85 Toyota Tercel 4WD '81 Yamaha XJ650
'66 Chevy C10 (Built 350) '79 Kawaski KZ650
'66 Chevy C10 (Straight 6) '78 Kawaski KZ200
'65 Chevy C10 (Original 283) '75 Suzuki TS185
'06 Toyota Corolla (5 Speed) '71 Honda CT90 (Trail 90)
'94 Ford Aerostar (XLT 4.0L)
'03 Dodge Caravan
'82 Chevy LUV (Diesel)

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NWMO
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Re: '84 WAGON REBUILD

Post by NWMO » Thu Feb 14, 2019 5:29 am

It seems like nobody has taken the time to add lift blocks to the engine and transmission crossmembers. Adding lift blocks of the same dimensions as the front strut top spacers would eliminate any CV issues. We've been doing it this way in the Subaru community for years.
Hey Professor,

This post makes me question if you have ever been under a Tercel or worked on/around the unibody frame, engine mounts, suspension connection points, etc.????

If you could post some pics of where I might add these "simple" little blocks, that would be great :D . I assume the Subbies are "full frame" cars (which would be nice), but when posting direction for Tercel owners, lets try to be honest and accurate in our posts. I would hate for somebody to jump on ebay and spend $$ on a similar kit to the one pictured to find out they have wasted their time and money. For those who want a better explanation of the challenges faced, Petros covered the biggest issues very well above. For all intents and purposes, a "simple" body lift for these cars does not exist.

Chris
Psalm 37:4 "Delight yourself in the Lord and he will give you the desires of your heart"

In remembrance of my friend ARCHINSTL:

T4WD augury?
"Oh, do not ask, 'What is it?' Let us go and make our visit."
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The Professor
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Re: '84 WAGON REBUILD

Post by The Professor » Thu Feb 14, 2019 8:44 am

Petros wrote:
Wed Feb 13, 2019 5:11 pm
a lift kit like that would not work on the tercel. the lower suspension lateral link and sway bar mount on the frame, not the cross member. Also, you would have to lower the engine/trans to keep the cv axle angles small. that also means you would lose the ground clearance under the engine/trans area, so not as useful as a full lift. lowering the front engine mounts to keep the angle on CV joint small would be rather involved: either a cutsom oil pan, or custom cross member, and it would be a complex redeisgn for either (with lots of cutting and welding). not enough of these cars left to make that worth making a kit, you could do a one off, but that is a lot of extra work.

simplest solution for the Tercel is limit front lift to an inch, and than use taller tires (which may require some clearance work in the fender wells front and rear). Rear can tolerate more lift, but you will need different longer shocks.
I don't think it matters where the anti-roll bar mounts, if you space everything down equally, there should be no change in any of the suspension angles or CVs. You don't lose ground clearance by spacing the drivetrain away from the body, otherwise the wheels/tires would be underground. Keep the stock oil pan, keep the stock crossmember (we do on the Subarus). All the powertrain/drivetrain is at the same height as a stock Tercel, but the body can be lifted up any amount (4 in. is pretty standard on the old Subarus). This provides clearance to fit much larger tires than came stock. In the Subaru community we tend to go from the stock 24 in. tires up to 27 or 28 in. mud terrains.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uaXXT2d ... gs=pl%2Cwn - Subarus at the Rubicon Trail

This is a pretty normal size lifted Subaru. Stock suspension angles, stock CV angles, and you can see how low the engine is in the chassis (this car is not running the dropped front skid plate.) I have never seen a Tercel lifted like this, probably because nobody has done a full body lift on an AL25.

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1975 Subaru SuperStar wagon
1984 Subaru Turbo-Traction wagon
1984 Subaru Turbo-Traction hardtop
1987 Subaru RX 3-door
1987.5 Subaru RX 3-door
1987 Subaru RX Type-RA 3-door
1987 Toyota Tercel SR5 wagon
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LowBuckCanuck
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Re: '84 WAGON REBUILD

Post by LowBuckCanuck » Thu Feb 14, 2019 10:07 am

The Professor wrote:
Thu Feb 14, 2019 8:44 am
Stock suspension angles, stock CV angles
5098dd1ca1334c992572cacf122821bb.jpg
92810071990120.jpg
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Yaut
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My tercel:: 1985 Toyota Tercel 4WD automatic, lifted 1.5", 15 inch wheels

Re: '84 WAGON REBUILD

Post by Yaut » Thu Feb 14, 2019 11:25 am

Correct me if I'm wrong but wouldn't you still have to do a suspension lift if you did a body lift? These cars have no upper ball joint if I recall and the upper part of the knuckle bolts directly to the strut/shock which rotates in the shock tower.
'85 Toyota Tercel 4WD '81 Yamaha XJ650
'66 Chevy C10 (Built 350) '79 Kawaski KZ650
'66 Chevy C10 (Straight 6) '78 Kawaski KZ200
'65 Chevy C10 (Original 283) '75 Suzuki TS185
'06 Toyota Corolla (5 Speed) '71 Honda CT90 (Trail 90)
'94 Ford Aerostar (XLT 4.0L)
'03 Dodge Caravan
'82 Chevy LUV (Diesel)

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Petros
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Re: '84 WAGON REBUILD

Post by Petros » Thu Feb 14, 2019 5:32 pm

where are those trakmotive axles made? do you know?

sounds like a deal. Factory new cv axles last 100k miles or more. some of the aftermarket ones do not even make it half that far, and many of the remanufauctured ones are junk right out of the box.
'87 Tercel 4wd SR5 (current engine swap project)
'84 Tercel 4wd (daily driver, with on going mods)
'92 Mazda MPV 4wd (wife's daily driver)
'85 Tercel 4wd DLX auto(daughter's daily driver)
'01 Honda Civic (other daughter's daily driver)

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Petros
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Re: '84 WAGON REBUILD

Post by Petros » Thu Feb 14, 2019 5:37 pm

quote " You don't lose ground clearance by spacing the drivetrain away from the body, "

I did not say you would lose it, but you will not gain it either. the relationship between the trans/oil pan and the wheel height will be the same. the only gain would be from larger tires. though I suppose you could fit larger tires with the body lifted up, giving you more than you could get with out lift it.
'
'87 Tercel 4wd SR5 (current engine swap project)
'84 Tercel 4wd (daily driver, with on going mods)
'92 Mazda MPV 4wd (wife's daily driver)
'85 Tercel 4wd DLX auto(daughter's daily driver)
'01 Honda Civic (other daughter's daily driver)

Yaut
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My tercel:: 1985 Toyota Tercel 4WD automatic, lifted 1.5", 15 inch wheels

Re: '84 WAGON REBUILD

Post by Yaut » Thu Feb 14, 2019 5:42 pm

Petros wrote:
Thu Feb 14, 2019 5:32 pm
where are those trakmotive axles made? do you know?

sounds like a deal. Factory new cv axles last 100k miles or more. some of the aftermarket ones do not even make it half that far, and many of the remanufauctured ones are junk right out of the box.
As far as I understand, they are made next to me in Springfield Missouri. And are completely new manufactured, not rebuilt. I find that rebuilt C/Vs are all trash. I can not speak to the longevity of these but they certainly look very high quality.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/For-Toyota-Ter ... OSwRxtZzJB~
'85 Toyota Tercel 4WD '81 Yamaha XJ650
'66 Chevy C10 (Built 350) '79 Kawaski KZ650
'66 Chevy C10 (Straight 6) '78 Kawaski KZ200
'65 Chevy C10 (Original 283) '75 Suzuki TS185
'06 Toyota Corolla (5 Speed) '71 Honda CT90 (Trail 90)
'94 Ford Aerostar (XLT 4.0L)
'03 Dodge Caravan
'82 Chevy LUV (Diesel)

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Petros
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Re: '84 WAGON REBUILD

Post by Petros » Thu Feb 14, 2019 7:03 pm

Yaut wrote:
Thu Feb 14, 2019 5:42 pm

As far as I understand, they are made next to me in Springfield Missouri. And are completely new manufactured, not rebuilt. I find that rebuilt C/Vs are all trash. I can not speak to the longevity of these but they certainly look very high quality.
I went to their website, they have several facilities around the country, one in Redlands California, which appeared to be their headquarters (that is where correspondence goes).

The pictues of the axles look nice, but that does not mean that is what comes in the box. I noticed on their website, they also have a facility in China, which makes me suspicions that the US facilities are just warehouses, not manufacturing plants.

in the packaging or on the actual part, does it say made in USA? Have you received the part?

as I have noted on other posts, I have ordered parts from US parts manufactures, only to find the box says "printed in USA", but the plastic warp on the part itself in the box says "China".
'87 Tercel 4wd SR5 (current engine swap project)
'84 Tercel 4wd (daily driver, with on going mods)
'92 Mazda MPV 4wd (wife's daily driver)
'85 Tercel 4wd DLX auto(daughter's daily driver)
'01 Honda Civic (other daughter's daily driver)

Yaut
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My tercel:: 1985 Toyota Tercel 4WD automatic, lifted 1.5", 15 inch wheels

Re: '84 WAGON REBUILD

Post by Yaut » Thu Feb 14, 2019 7:40 pm

I had purchased them from a local Bumper to Bumper and installed them some time back. I didn't look closely at the packaging but after doing some research, it does appear they are made overseas, likely China. They are however much better in quality than any rebuilt I have come across and are very smooth. For $120, and a few minutes of work, I'll take my chances and see how long they last. The greatest benefit to me was the reduced c/v diameter which gave greater clearance.
'85 Toyota Tercel 4WD '81 Yamaha XJ650
'66 Chevy C10 (Built 350) '79 Kawaski KZ650
'66 Chevy C10 (Straight 6) '78 Kawaski KZ200
'65 Chevy C10 (Original 283) '75 Suzuki TS185
'06 Toyota Corolla (5 Speed) '71 Honda CT90 (Trail 90)
'94 Ford Aerostar (XLT 4.0L)
'03 Dodge Caravan
'82 Chevy LUV (Diesel)

Yaut
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Posts: 43
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My tercel:: 1985 Toyota Tercel 4WD automatic, lifted 1.5", 15 inch wheels

Re: '84 WAGON REBUILD

Post by Yaut » Thu Feb 14, 2019 7:42 pm

Indeed, they are manufactured by Ningbo Wonh Industries Co., Ltd., A Chinese company. We'll see how they do.
'85 Toyota Tercel 4WD '81 Yamaha XJ650
'66 Chevy C10 (Built 350) '79 Kawaski KZ650
'66 Chevy C10 (Straight 6) '78 Kawaski KZ200
'65 Chevy C10 (Original 283) '75 Suzuki TS185
'06 Toyota Corolla (5 Speed) '71 Honda CT90 (Trail 90)
'94 Ford Aerostar (XLT 4.0L)
'03 Dodge Caravan
'82 Chevy LUV (Diesel)

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Petros
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Re: '84 WAGON REBUILD

Post by Petros » Thu Feb 14, 2019 10:43 pm

no reason quality parts can not come from china, as long as the seller maintains quality control authority.

I had bought a number of EMPI new CV axles in the past, they used to make their parts in the US. when I lived in southern California EMPI was a well respected and popular source of performance parts for VW rebuilds. But after going through perhaps 4 sets of EMPI axles on my Tercel due to various failures (including an inner CV joint, which almost never gives out). That was when I carefully inspected a new one I had still in the box, and found "made in China" on it. I no longer buy them.

The number of new Tercel CV axles suppliers is dwindling because of the low demand, hopefully one of the better brands will survive, or else all we will get are junk from communist factories.
'87 Tercel 4wd SR5 (current engine swap project)
'84 Tercel 4wd (daily driver, with on going mods)
'92 Mazda MPV 4wd (wife's daily driver)
'85 Tercel 4wd DLX auto(daughter's daily driver)
'01 Honda Civic (other daughter's daily driver)

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NWMO
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Re: '84 WAGON REBUILD

Post by NWMO » Fri Feb 15, 2019 6:22 am

Hey Yaut,

I'm the other Missouri voice here frequently that Tom (St. Louis) mentioned. I am going to get down and visit him this summer, would be great to try to meet some others here as well. Keegan is in KC and I've been wanting to catch up with him as well, but I've been waiting to complete my engine replacement that has taken way too long.

Maybe it would be easier than I imagine, but to maintain a reasonable angle for the CV joints, the 1"-1.5" lift works well. Realize as well, that the 1"-1.5" recommendation is for those of us that want to drive our vehicles daily. If you want a dirt machine that you measure use by hours vs miles, you could get crazy and plan on frequent axle changes to repair the failed CV joints.

The challenge I see (explained better by Petros) is when you try to lift any part of the "body" you lift the engine/drive train as well, which gets you in trouble quickly. The motor mounts and trans mount are all tied to the unibody. Now, if someone wants to make custom mounts that allow the rest of the vehicle to be lifted, while leaving the engine/tranny in a lower position, more power to them. If you get too carried away, brake lines, shifting and steering components would all come into play. As you point out as well, extreme lift would require lengthening some components or dropping their connection points.

Love the look of you car.

Chris
Psalm 37:4 "Delight yourself in the Lord and he will give you the desires of your heart"

In remembrance of my friend ARCHINSTL:

T4WD augury?
"Oh, do not ask, 'What is it?' Let us go and make our visit."
T.S. Eliot - "The Love Song of J. Alfred Prufrock"

"Now and then we had a hope that, if we lived and were good, God would permit us to be pirates."
Mark Twain

The Professor
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Re: '84 WAGON REBUILD

Post by The Professor » Fri Feb 15, 2019 8:11 am

NWMO wrote:
Fri Feb 15, 2019 6:22 am
...when you try to lift any part of the "body" you lift the engine/drive train as well, which gets you in trouble quickly. The motor mounts and trans mount are all tied to the unibody.... If you get too carried away, brake lines, shifting and steering components would all come into play. As you point out as well, extreme lift would require lengthening some components or dropping their connection points.
The engine mounts on the T4WD bolt to the engine crossmember (transmission has a crossmember too, IIRC). If you add lift blocks to the mounting points of those crossmembers you are not lifting the engine or drivetrain, they remain in the same place, in relation to the wheels/brakes/CVs/etc. Basically, any place the suspension or crossmember bolts to the unibody, you add a spacer. Spacers on top of the front strut mounts (doesn't matter if there isn't an upper ball joint, the upper strut mount is rubber isolated, a poor man's upper ball joint).

Yes, brake lines and shift linkages become an issue at some amount of lift, but you should expect that any time you lift or lower any vehicle. For reference, the 4 in. lift I had on my Subaru did NOT require longer brake lines (even at full suspension droop) and did not make shifting any more difficult, but the 4WD shifter sat at a slightly different angle. I had to trim one of the radiator hoses, upper, IIRC.

The larger body lift allows you to fit even larger tires, which is really where you gain clearance under the diffs. The big body lift will still help with your approach/departure/breakover angles.

Lots and lots of people daily drive their lifted Subarus, mine was a DD for several years and didn't give me any issues or complications due to the lift.
LowBuckCanuck wrote:
Thu Feb 14, 2019 10:07 am
The Professor wrote:
Thu Feb 14, 2019 8:44 am
Stock suspension angles, stock CV angles
5098dd1ca1334c992572cacf122821bb.jpg
92810071990120.jpg
Terrible photos to compare, I can't even see the control arms in that dealer promo photo.

Just found this writeup of a Subaru Loyale owner going from a 4 in. lift to a 6 in. lift. You'll notice he has to lengthen, flip and extend a lot more than I did for the 4 in. lift. http://subaru-adventures.com/6-lift-ea8 ... brication/
Last edited by The Professor on Fri Feb 15, 2019 8:17 am, edited 1 time in total.
1975 Subaru SuperStar wagon
1984 Subaru Turbo-Traction wagon
1984 Subaru Turbo-Traction hardtop
1987 Subaru RX 3-door
1987.5 Subaru RX 3-door
1987 Subaru RX Type-RA 3-door
1987 Toyota Tercel SR5 wagon
1999 Subaru Forester S
2002 Subaru WRX sedan

Yaut
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Posts: 43
Joined: Thu Jan 10, 2019 5:34 pm
My tercel:: 1985 Toyota Tercel 4WD automatic, lifted 1.5", 15 inch wheels

Re: '84 WAGON REBUILD

Post by Yaut » Fri Feb 15, 2019 8:13 am

Petros wrote:
Thu Feb 14, 2019 10:43 pm
no reason quality parts can not come from china, as long as the seller maintains quality control authority.
I agree. Not everything from China is junk, most but not all. It is very unfortunate that so many quality parts are no longer being made in the US. I am however grateful that some parts are still being made, even if they are lower quality. I will report back if I have any problems with these axles but to be honest, I won't be putting too many miles on this car so failure may never come into play.
'85 Toyota Tercel 4WD '81 Yamaha XJ650
'66 Chevy C10 (Built 350) '79 Kawaski KZ650
'66 Chevy C10 (Straight 6) '78 Kawaski KZ200
'65 Chevy C10 (Original 283) '75 Suzuki TS185
'06 Toyota Corolla (5 Speed) '71 Honda CT90 (Trail 90)
'94 Ford Aerostar (XLT 4.0L)
'03 Dodge Caravan
'82 Chevy LUV (Diesel)

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