4a rebuild for the Rusty Frog

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NWMO
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Re: 4a rebuild for the Rusty Frog

Post by NWMO » Sat Jan 13, 2018 7:47 am

Alrighty,

The head and block are sound and rebuildable. Unfortunately, two of the four cylinders need sleeved and .040 should clean up the other two. Crank just needs polished.

The rebuilder can find .040 over piston/rings, but they were struggling finding a gasket set. I see a Sealed Power set and APEX on Rockauto, any preference?

Chris

All comments welcome.
Psalm 37:4 "Delight yourself in the Lord and he will give you the desires of your heart"

In remembrance of my friend ARCHINSTL:

T4WD augury?
"Oh, do not ask, 'What is it?' Let us go and make our visit."
T.S. Eliot - "The Love Song of J. Alfred Prufrock"

"Now and then we had a hope that, if we lived and were good, God would permit us to be pirates."
Mark Twain

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NWMO
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Re: 4a rebuild for the Rusty Frog

Post by NWMO » Sat Jan 13, 2018 11:06 am

After more thought,

The machine shop much prefers to land the new sleeves on a “lip” at the bottom of the cylinder bore. If I understood him correctly, he didn’t want to bore .040 to then find out he needed a sleeve, because there would be less shoulder left at the bottom. It sounded like most sleeves are in the .050 to .060 range for thickness, thus a bore for a .040 sleeve would be nearly .100. Remembering what appeared to be “thin” cylinder walls to start with, I wonder if I wouldn’t be better off in the long run to sleeve all four cylinders to STD or .020 over? It would seem once sleeved, future rebuilds may be easier (for me or the next person)? I assume re-sleeving a block is doable?

Chris
Psalm 37:4 "Delight yourself in the Lord and he will give you the desires of your heart"

In remembrance of my friend ARCHINSTL:

T4WD augury?
"Oh, do not ask, 'What is it?' Let us go and make our visit."
T.S. Eliot - "The Love Song of J. Alfred Prufrock"

"Now and then we had a hope that, if we lived and were good, God would permit us to be pirates."
Mark Twain

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Petros
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Re: 4a rebuild for the Rusty Frog

Post by Petros » Sat Jan 13, 2018 9:38 pm

as I recalled the sealed power gasket set is okay. make sure you do the mod to the head gasket as I show in the repair guides thread on Head Gasket replacement (and follow the procedure to install the head as I out line there!).

Sleeving all four is a good idea, does it cost much? finding a replacement block in a wrecking yard might be cheaper. even with the smaller lip, I doubt the sleeve would go anywhere, it is pretty well captured.

Since these cars are so under powered, I went .040" oversized. but that means I can not over bore again, just replace rings, if necessary. So would need to replace the engine, which I eventually did with the 4ac and very glad I did, there are some better design details on it (like the head cools better).
'87 Tercel 4wd SR5 (current engine swap project)
'84 Tercel 4wd (daily driver, with on going mods)
'92 Mazda MPV 4wd (wife's daily driver)
'85 Tercel 4wd DLX auto(daughter's daily driver)
'01 Honda Civic (other daughter's daily driver)

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NWMO
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Re: 4a rebuild for the Rusty Frog

Post by NWMO » Sun Jan 14, 2018 1:48 pm

Hey Peter,

This is a JY engine I’m rebuilding. The proprietor said he would guarantee the block, but I’m guessing that is just for cracks etc., I will call him Monday. Yes, it would likely be cheaper, the sleeving will run around $150/hole vs $25/hole for boring. That is why I was trying to make decisions that allow the engine to be rebuilt again in the future. Is your head gasket mod for the 4a engine as well?

Chris
Psalm 37:4 "Delight yourself in the Lord and he will give you the desires of your heart"

In remembrance of my friend ARCHINSTL:

T4WD augury?
"Oh, do not ask, 'What is it?' Let us go and make our visit."
T.S. Eliot - "The Love Song of J. Alfred Prufrock"

"Now and then we had a hope that, if we lived and were good, God would permit us to be pirates."
Mark Twain

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Petros
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My tercel:: '84 Tercel4wd w/extensive mods
Location: Arlington WA USA

Re: 4a rebuild for the Rusty Frog

Post by Petros » Sun Jan 14, 2018 3:47 pm

I would see if the JY will trade out your block, it is really useless if it takes $300 to sleeve it. the block at best is only worth about $100, see if you can return it, or trade it. Sleeving is only worth doing if you can not find a good used engine, or for some reason it has collectable value to keep the original engine in a rare car. Neither is true for the Tercel.

Yes, the head gasket mod and (and the installation procedure) is the same and works for both engines. I did it on my 4ac swap engine.
'87 Tercel 4wd SR5 (current engine swap project)
'84 Tercel 4wd (daily driver, with on going mods)
'92 Mazda MPV 4wd (wife's daily driver)
'85 Tercel 4wd DLX auto(daughter's daily driver)
'01 Honda Civic (other daughter's daily driver)

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NWMO
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Re: 4a rebuild for the Rusty Frog

Post by NWMO » Sun Jan 14, 2018 7:18 pm

Petros,

“Useless” would be a cracked block. This one is salvable, but requires more $$, which is frustrating. Additionally, chasing a new block would set the rebuild back a month likely as well. In the grand scheme, a few hundred dollars is frustrating, but if I can get the 4a in good shape, spread out over 100,000 miles or more, not the end of the world.

Chris
Psalm 37:4 "Delight yourself in the Lord and he will give you the desires of your heart"

In remembrance of my friend ARCHINSTL:

T4WD augury?
"Oh, do not ask, 'What is it?' Let us go and make our visit."
T.S. Eliot - "The Love Song of J. Alfred Prufrock"

"Now and then we had a hope that, if we lived and were good, God would permit us to be pirates."
Mark Twain

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Petros
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My tercel:: '84 Tercel4wd w/extensive mods
Location: Arlington WA USA

Re: 4a rebuild for the Rusty Frog

Post by Petros » Sun Jan 14, 2018 11:41 pm

if it needs more repairs to make it usable than the market value of the block, it was over priced. Most wrecking yards will take back an part, I would argue that you should have gotten a reasonably usable engine, having to spend $300 in repairs to make it work is not reasonable.

At least see if you can get a partial refund (if you force him to take it back, he gets scrap worth a few $, and must give you another engine), it would save him money to refund part of your price rather than take it back. I presume the rest of the engine is in good shape, not a total loss.
'87 Tercel 4wd SR5 (current engine swap project)
'84 Tercel 4wd (daily driver, with on going mods)
'92 Mazda MPV 4wd (wife's daily driver)
'85 Tercel 4wd DLX auto(daughter's daily driver)
'01 Honda Civic (other daughter's daily driver)

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NWMO
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Re: 4a rebuild for the Rusty Frog

Post by NWMO » Thu Mar 01, 2018 7:18 pm

Hey All,

I got a second motor (4a) apart and into the shop and things are looking up. Hoping 0.020” over pistons and a rebuild will take care of the Rusty Frog for a long time (likely out live the car). I got the second motor for a $50 hold that they will return when I take the unused motor back. Planning on the 272 regrind and cleaning the engine up a little. I am hoping to use a heat resistant paint on the valve cover, any suggestions? I am also having fun attempting to replace the stickers on the valve cover as well. Considering green for the accent color. I only got 1/2 way done with the yellow/black sticker. What do the numbers tell me (besides the 4a)?

Anybody use printable vinyl to replace these? Brand, success?

Chris
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Psalm 37:4 "Delight yourself in the Lord and he will give you the desires of your heart"

In remembrance of my friend ARCHINSTL:

T4WD augury?
"Oh, do not ask, 'What is it?' Let us go and make our visit."
T.S. Eliot - "The Love Song of J. Alfred Prufrock"

"Now and then we had a hope that, if we lived and were good, God would permit us to be pirates."
Mark Twain

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NWMO
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Re: 4a rebuild for the Rusty Frog

Post by NWMO » Fri Apr 20, 2018 9:11 pm

Finally,

Time to work!

Chris
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Psalm 37:4 "Delight yourself in the Lord and he will give you the desires of your heart"

In remembrance of my friend ARCHINSTL:

T4WD augury?
"Oh, do not ask, 'What is it?' Let us go and make our visit."
T.S. Eliot - "The Love Song of J. Alfred Prufrock"

"Now and then we had a hope that, if we lived and were good, God would permit us to be pirates."
Mark Twain

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NWMO
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Posts: 574
Joined: Wed May 20, 2015 1:08 pm

Re: 4a rebuild for the Rusty Frog

Post by NWMO » Mon Apr 23, 2018 5:11 pm

Hey all,

When I’ve rebuilt American iron many moons ago, I was typically able to prime the oil pump/gallies with a drill. I assume that’s not easily done on these engines. Should I just be liberal with the pre-lube or is there a trick?

TIA,

Chris
Psalm 37:4 "Delight yourself in the Lord and he will give you the desires of your heart"

In remembrance of my friend ARCHINSTL:

T4WD augury?
"Oh, do not ask, 'What is it?' Let us go and make our visit."
T.S. Eliot - "The Love Song of J. Alfred Prufrock"

"Now and then we had a hope that, if we lived and were good, God would permit us to be pirates."
Mark Twain

Termell
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Re: 4a rebuild for the Rusty Frog

Post by Termell » Mon Apr 23, 2018 8:28 pm

That sounds a great find!

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Petros
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Re: 4a rebuild for the Rusty Frog

Post by Petros » Tue Apr 24, 2018 2:27 am

NWMO wrote:
Mon Apr 23, 2018 5:11 pm
Hey all,

When I’ve rebuilt American iron many moons ago, I was typically able to prime the oil pump/gallies with a drill. I assume that’s not easily done on these engines. Should I just be liberal with the pre-lube or is there a trick?
yes, prelube, and pour motor oil all over valve train before you start it, usually works good enough. If you want to go all the way, this is what I do: when you are ready for first start, unplug the distributor and crank the engine until the oil light goes out. that will pump oil throughout the whole engine. This will also pump fuel into the float bowl and prime the carb. Than plug the distributor back in and fearlessly give it a crank.
'87 Tercel 4wd SR5 (current engine swap project)
'84 Tercel 4wd (daily driver, with on going mods)
'92 Mazda MPV 4wd (wife's daily driver)
'85 Tercel 4wd DLX auto(daughter's daily driver)
'01 Honda Civic (other daughter's daily driver)

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NWMO
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Re: 4a rebuild for the Rusty Frog

Post by NWMO » Tue Apr 24, 2018 6:31 am

Thanks Petros.
Psalm 37:4 "Delight yourself in the Lord and he will give you the desires of your heart"

In remembrance of my friend ARCHINSTL:

T4WD augury?
"Oh, do not ask, 'What is it?' Let us go and make our visit."
T.S. Eliot - "The Love Song of J. Alfred Prufrock"

"Now and then we had a hope that, if we lived and were good, God would permit us to be pirates."
Mark Twain

User avatar
NWMO
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Posts: 574
Joined: Wed May 20, 2015 1:08 pm

Re: 4a rebuild for the Rusty Frog

Post by NWMO » Fri May 25, 2018 10:25 pm

Finally making the time,
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Psalm 37:4 "Delight yourself in the Lord and he will give you the desires of your heart"

In remembrance of my friend ARCHINSTL:

T4WD augury?
"Oh, do not ask, 'What is it?' Let us go and make our visit."
T.S. Eliot - "The Love Song of J. Alfred Prufrock"

"Now and then we had a hope that, if we lived and were good, God would permit us to be pirates."
Mark Twain

User avatar
NWMO
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Posts: 574
Joined: Wed May 20, 2015 1:08 pm

Re: 4a rebuild for the Rusty Frog

Post by NWMO » Fri Jun 08, 2018 4:04 pm

Slow but sure.
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Psalm 37:4 "Delight yourself in the Lord and he will give you the desires of your heart"

In remembrance of my friend ARCHINSTL:

T4WD augury?
"Oh, do not ask, 'What is it?' Let us go and make our visit."
T.S. Eliot - "The Love Song of J. Alfred Prufrock"

"Now and then we had a hope that, if we lived and were good, God would permit us to be pirates."
Mark Twain

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