Trouble Shifting into 1st and Reverse

[Mr. Mad Ox]

Ok so I finished replacing the clutch in my terc about a week or so ago and today I filled up the trans with 80w90 gear oil. It shifted into all gears smoothly with the engine off. With the engine running its really hard to shift into 1st. I can shift into 2nd, 3rd, 4th, and 5th just fine but when I get to reverse it makes a grinding noise. I can force it into both 1st and reverse but it is not smooth at all. It's as if the clutch is still engaged a little bit even though the pedal is all the way down. So I checked the pedal height and free play, both within spec. So since I'm working on it at school I asked my instructor about it. We took it out and he drove it around for a while. We found that all the upshifts are great and downshifting from 5-4 and 4-3 is fine but downshifting from 3-2 and 2-1 is a little rough. We thought it might just need to warm up so we drove it around the block a few times to warm it up a bit and it shifted better but still had trouble getting into 1st. The thing is though, it wasn't consistent- sometimes it went into 1st smooth as silk. So he had two main ideas- the clutch is not disengaging all the way for some reason, probably cable related, or the gear oil was too thick or prohibiting the synchs from working properly. His first suggestion was to play around with the pedal height adjustment and see if there was any difference, there wasn't. His other suggestion was to thin out the gear oil with ATF or just drain it all and refill it with 50 weight engine oil and drive it for a little bit to see if that makes a difference.

So my questions are:
Is it possible for a clutch cable to stretch/would that cause these symptoms?
Is there any other way to adjust the cable other than the pedal height adjustment?
Does this sound like a gear oil issue?
Has this happened to anyone here before?

Oh yeah, the trans shifted fine before the clutch job so I don't think the problem is trans related (I'm really hoping it's not)
Any suggestions are greatly appreciated

[Gottolovem]

A few months ago i had to replace my clutch cable because it had stretched to almost the point of failure.
However the pedal free play got greater and greater until it became hard to shift into any gear not just first.
The clutch pedal is self adjusting i don't think there is a way to mess with that aspect of the assembly (I could be wrong).
As to the oil question there are others on this forum that would know better than myself so i will leave it to them. I run the specified oil always.

[walkersimpson]

So you can adjust the clutch peddle what you want to do is reach above the peddle you will see a white gear what I have done in the past I would push that gear it will only go one way don't punch it to far or you will have a pain in the ass time getting the spring back where it should be see if that makes any difference if not maybe try getting a new cable if that doesn't do it you have some bad syncros best thing to do is find a tranny in a wrecking yard cost to much to rebuild

[Petros]

you have one of three issues that can cause this, your surmise that it is not disengaging all the way is correct, it is not trans related but the clutch is not completely disengaging. I can be caused by:

1. A stretched cable that is stretched beyond what the auto adjuster can manage. Usually, as pointed out above, the play gets large. You can also inspect the auto adjuster at the top of the clutch pedal and see if it is at the end of its adjustment range.

2. the auto adjuster is not functioning properly, there should be two springs that hold the cam teeth tight up against each other, and when there is slack it should jump to the next tooth on the cam. you need to inspect its fuction to see if the springs are on correctly, sometimes when you pull the spring off to allow slack in the clutch cable when you remove it, the spring is not installed correctly so it takes the slack out when you are all done.

3. there is at least one brand of after market clutch that is too thick and does not retract far enough to completely disengage when new. there have been several threads on this topic. the only solution if this is the problem is remove it and put a different brand of clutch in it. OTOH, you can just live with it until it wears enough to clear, it should not take long to wear it down since it is always slipping when at a stop. You should also learn to double clutch it so you can get it into gear when you need to.

good luck.

[dlb]

my money is on a bad clutch component, either the pressure plate or friction disc. if it was the cable, you would likely have had this issue before replacing the clutch. i think xirdneh had this happen to him once or twice. there are a few threads here on this topic so do a search for them and look for his username.

[toyomonkey611]

incorrect clutch could have pressure plate that requires more effort than normal to shift. could that hurt the clutch cable?

[xirdneh]

yea, i had a similiar problem and it was the new pressure plate that was bad
it was vey hard to shift into first and reverse and almost impossible to shift into the 4wd extra low gear
now i test the pressure plates before installing them
too much re-work if it does not work

i did a write up on this around 7 years ago

[Mr. Mad Ox]

Thanks everyone, yeah I'm thinking it's the friction disc or the pressure plate, how do I know which one it is though, without dropping the tranny again?

If it is the friction disc, about how long/how many miles would it take to wear enough off to be smooth again?- I know it's impossible for you guys to know for sure but like a few hundred miles or more like a few thousand?

And if it's the pressure plate, driving on it like this won't hurt my synchs or dog teeth will it?

I drove it around today and it was the same thing, hard to get in 1st and reverse. Do-able but harder than it should be. I didn't try EL but I'll check it next time.
I sure hope I don't have to drop that trans again, too much re-work is right... I'm really looking forward to driving it this winter.

[xirdneh]

search for the write up i did on this
i explained how i tested the pressure plate
also explains how much travel the clutch arm has to make(via cable) so you can check that
i do not think there is any way to be sure before pulling it apart

[Mr. Mad Ox]

I read it and it looks like I'm gunna have to get the flywheel and pressure plate back out to test it.
Unfortunately I only have one more day to work on it until next semester.
So will driving it with a bad pressure plate until mid-January hurt anything in the trans?
Just for the record, this has been from the Sachs kit.

[Petros]

it will only harm the clutch, which is already suspect. Just take it easy on the trans, do not force it into gear; down shift into first while the car is still moving when coming to a stop. If necessary turn the engine off to slip it into first gear, than wait at a light and start the engine right before you have to start moving again, and learn to double clutch it might help too. this should keep the stress on the trans to a min. When you are moving it is not as much an issue, but getting it into first from a stand still will be hard on it, and should be avoided.

[Jarf]

Things like this are the main reason I spring for factory parts.
Nothing worse than having to do a big job twice.
Sorry to hear.

[larry mcgrath]

Remove the clutch cable from the arm at the trany, slide it out of the hole in the belhousing -by the starter- with a hacksaw cut a couple of flat washers so they can be slipped over the clutch cable -washer now has one side cut out so it looks like a U- this will take the slack out of the cable,which will help the clutch dis-engague. not to many washers tho or the thro out bearing will be engaged on thr fingers of the pressure plate Larry PM me with your phone number and I'll explain this to you better over the phone. Larry

[Mr. Mad Ox]

After reading xirdneh's experience I don't think it's the cable, I got a new one off rock auto just to have but right now my money is on the pressure plate.

So I think I'm just gunna leave it at school over the break and then test the pressure plate when I get back.