Massive oil consumption (was: Valve Stem Seals)

[irowiki]

Made it home with the new wagon today, once we got into Colorado and the elevation went up she started being a little slow, so the wife promptly named her Pokey! No major problems except #4 spark plug somehow coming loose, massive amounts of burning oil, and leaving the headlights on while we slept at a rest stop. Will do a quasi trip report later.

Anyway, she's burning about a quart of oil every 200 miles. Funny thing is we can't see any oil smoke! We tested compression before leaving and the numbers were good, but it looked like#4 cylinder had oil in it. Seems to lose oil much faster at higher RPM's (lost more oil than usual after 100 miles of 75-80 MPH and 4200-4500 rpm)

On the way home I tried a range of solutions, no smoke, Restore, STP additive, nothing helped, it just burned those as fast as it burned oil. Did not try seafoam in the oil yet, may try a full flush before attempting this job.

Petros showed us how to replace a stem seal, so I think we can tackle this job. I'd like to know what exactly we need to have so I only have to have the valve cover off once!

1-2 sets of valve stem seals
Valve cover gasket/seal

Any other gaskets or seals required?

Will rent a spring compressor at autozone. This looks cool but don't think I'd ever replace enough seals for it to be worth it.

[marlinh]

Those are pretty high rpm's. The piston rings will tend to 'float' at extremely high speeds. They can't maintain pressure against the cylinder walls and oil consumption goes up. If it was a bad valve stem seal, I don't think oil consumption would increase that much unless the valve guide is worn right out. If that is the case replacing the seals won't change anything. I would try sea foam first.

[irowiki]

When I "only" went 60 MPH for a tank, I think it only lost half a quart instead of nearly the whole quart. MPG's went up by 2-3.

If it is seals vs rings, when should smoke be appearing? I'm not seeing much smoke at all, may follow the wife around for a bit as she drives it.

The previous owner thinks the valve stem seals are bad:

https://tercel4wd.com/forums/viewtopic.php? ... als#p65687

I may do the seafoam flush, 1 pint per 5 quarts (roughly), the oil that is left when it is low is quite dirty!

[xirdneh]

i was told many moons ago that to test for bad valve stem seals
go down a long hill while in gear and with foot off the gas pedal
stop at the bottom and then take off
if you get a big puff of blue smoke when you take off
that is bad stem seals
even if they are bad they would not use that much oil
you probably have more than one thing causing this
bad piston rings
clogged PVC valve
bad valve stem guides
to name a few

[dlb]

the indicator for worn valve stem seals that i like best is blue smoke on start up. after you shut the engine off, all the oil that has been splashed around up in the valve train drips down. if the valve stem seals are worn, it will allow the oil to run down into the combustion chambers. when you start the engine, that oil will burn off and cause visible blue smoke on start up.

[irowiki]

The thing is, I don't see any blue smoke ever!

I'm going to have the wife drive around once we get it registered and follow her around and see when I see smoke.

The oil leftover from all of this is filthy, so going to dump in half a can of seafoam, get it nice and hot, drain, new filter and oil, half or full can of seafoam, drive it a while, drain, fill with good oil and good filter, and see what she does!

[marlinh]

http://seafoamsales.com/using-in-crankcase-oil/

I would follow the instructions about the quantity of seafoam to add to the engine. 1 1/2 oz per quart of oil.

[dlb]

The thing is, I don't see any blue smoke ever!

an engine burning a small or moderate amount of oil continuously might not make clouds of blue smoke visible through the rear window. you'd probably have to drive behind the car for quite some time to get a really good idea of how much and how consistently it's burning.

I would follow the instructions about the quantity of seafoam to add to the engine. 1 1/2 oz per quart of oil.

for sake of ease: a quart is approximately equal to a liter, so the 3a has an engine oil capacity of roughly 3.5 quarts. at 1.5 oz per quart, that's 5.25 ounces of seafoam for our engines. a can of seafoam is 16 ounces so about 1/3 of a can should do it.

[irowiki]

The seafoam knockoff can I bought actually has directions for a "full flush" which is 1 pint of seafoam knockoff per 5 quarts of oil, or .47 liters of it to 4.7 liters of oil, then idle engine for 15 mins and change oil.

I'm tempted to do all three, the full flush as shown on the knockoff can to get the really bad crud out, then the preservice, then the "after service" as shown on the seafoam site. Get her cleaned out really good!

dlb, I might try your water cleaning too!

[keith]

I think we discussed this here about pulling the plugs and pouring 1.5 oz of Seafoam or Breakfree into each cylinder and let it sit over night. Then crank the engine the next day with the plugs out to expel any liquids before installing the plugs and starting the engine. The Seafoam or Breakfree will dissolve the crud from the rings directly.

Did I see that the head was remove recently? Sometimes renewing the valve surfaces and replacing the head gasket can cause the rings to unseat. Also have you checked for oil dripping from the bottom front of the engine around the timing chain cover? These engines are notorious for leaking front oil seals.

If you see a lot of oil from there, you have to pull the timing belt and lower timing gear, but do not follow the FSM about dropping the pan and removing the oil pump. That is not only way too much work, it is difficult to put it back together without damaging the new seal. Just use a dental pick to extract the old seal and slip the new one in place with a little contact cement (wet) around the outer edge. Do not let the contact cement dry first as the directions say.

Drying contact cement to tacky does provide the strongest bond, but it still bonds applied wet and you don't need the maximum bond. Just a little will do. Some just put them in dry with no cement of any kind but I'm not that trusting. Oil or grease the inner lip first though, and oil or grease the length of the nose of the crankshaft where it will slide over.

[irowiki]

There's a few drips from the front, reminds me of my 81's oil leak but not quite as bad.

I've thought of doing the seafoam directly in the cylinder but I'm in a closely packed neighborhood, don't want to get into too much trouble

[Petros]

I cleaned all of the carbon off the piston tops and combustion chambers when I replaced the head gasket, there would be no point in doing the water treatment unless for some reason it has carbon build up from all of the oil consumption.

I do not see how it is possible to have the rings "unseat" when replacing a head gasket, the low end was never disturbed. It is possible to have the rings loose their heat treat if it over heats badly (needle pegged in the red for a long stretch), but that never happened, usually the head would be badly warped if not physically damage if it gets hot enough to damage the rings. The head was still flat and did not need a resurface, so it seems unlikely. I have replaced head gaskets on Tercels perhaps a dozen times, or more, and having it consume more oil after has never happened.

Beside, the oil consumption when I drove it from Los Angels to where I changed the head gasket in Ashland OR, was no more or less than from Ashalnd to home in Arlington wa. I only used about 1 to 2 quarts on the 1000 mile drive, including the very hot central valley in California in July. It is strange it used so much oil on the way back. I did not notice any oil leaks the several months I had it, I replaced the valve cover gasket which was badly leaking, and cleaned the engine compartment and could find no other leaks. it is possible the rear main is leaking, but that much oil would cover the underside of the car with motor oil. most likely loss if from engine consumption. The car sat and was hardly driven for 4 years until I drove it north from Los Angeles in July. It drove fine the whole way except for the head gasket giving up. Perhaps a seafoam treatment will help, and next I would try the valve stem seals. If that is not much help in the oil consumption area than perhaps the head should come off and the valves redone, and new valve guides.

[irowiki]

Okay found one leak. Found drips offset from the engine, turns out it was red! The auto transmission cooler lines seemed to be a bit loose and dripping a bit. Loosened the clamps, pushed the lines on a bit more and tightened them a bit. Seems to have stopped.

Dumped half a can of seafoam in, drove her for a bit, and drained the oil. Phew, it was nasty!



Refilled with oil and 6 ounces of seafoam, will drive it for a tank or two.


What do you guys think of this, it is oil designed for engines pre 1988, and matches what is specified in the manual! Type SF




Will do the seafoam in the cylinder treatment later. Will keep you posted on the rate of leaks!

[irowiki]

Seafoam in the oil didn't help. Still ate a quart of oil for a 200 mile trip, average speed 65-70 mph, almost 4k rpm?

My uncle, following me in a rental, reported light smoke when accelerating from stop lights that stopped when we hit a steady speed.

On the way back I tried going 55 mph only, 3200 rpm? I think it ate 3/4 quart that time for 180 miles. Put marvel mystery in to try that (it was on clearance!)

Put some seafoam in each cylinder today, let it soak for a long time, cranked it, got the junk out, made a mess, put new spark plugs in (the old ones (that Petros had installed) had disintegrating ceramic insulators on the inside part, not sure on the term), started her up, she smoked for a good long while, and eventually went back to smoking on accelerating. Tried coasting down a hill and stomping on the gas at the bottom and got a nice cloud of blue smoke as well. Will need to drive it a while to see if this helps or not.

So are we looking at stem seals or rings here?

May try this next, it claims to seal worn rings:

http://www.lucasoil.com/products/displa ... 25&catid=2

They also have something targeted at stem seal leaks!

[dlb]

geez, sorry to hear it paul. did you or petros ever do a compression test on the engine? i can't remember if you already mentioned it and i'm curious what the #s are.