worng transmission?

[e2stew]

Hi, i have a deal to get a 83 Tercel wagon sr5 tomorrow. Its in over all good shape. However the original 6speed was replaced with a 5speed(from junk yard) by previous owner.
The 5speed doesn't work in 4wd. On the test drive I was able to get in in to 4wd but it just wasn't right. It was like the rear tires where pushing faster(?) than the front, this was in a dirt/gravel parking lot. It was almost impossible to get out of 4wd, had to go in reverse and hit it back to 2wd, took multiple tries.

So am I right to assume that the 5speed is from a later year and has the wrong drive ratio?
I have a lead on a 6speed for an 83 for about $300 delivered. Also I'm not sure if Tercel's have a separate transfer case or if its in the transmission but the 6speed I am looking at comes with transfer case/box I believe.
Is that a fair price?
Will that solve my problems?
If it is a drive ratio problem could I get a rear axle from a latter year,? That might be cheaper if I can find one at a local wrecker.

I am not much of a wrench, the most I have ever done is rebuild a carb for my motorcycle. But I am going to attempt this swap myself.
Which would be easier trans or axle?
Any tips or suggestions?

Also if anyone thinks I should just pass on this Tercel let me know asap.

Thanks

[tercel4wdrules]

Welcome to the forums. It's highly likely that they installed a Z54F transaxle from a later (1985+) 4.10:1 final drive car. The easiest way to fix this is to swap out the rear differential with the correct ratio (4.10), it will be cheaper, easier, and better. The 4.10 final drive gives the car better overall response and is better suited to the power output of the engine.

Good luck!

[e2stew]

Thanks for the advice.
Can I just swap out the deferential?
Or do I need to swap out the whole rear axle?
Also is there a way to verify what year trans it has?

Thanks again

[e2stew]

Also would the wrong finnal drive to the rear deferential be the reason it was so hard to disengage 4wd?
Or is that a sign of another problem?

[shogun]

ive had that happen once, and changing the ring an pinion made every thing work, but i had to go back to 3.73 since i couldnt find a 4.10 rear end, after my transmission got locked some of the bearings were in the limits of play but not done for

[e2stew]

I found a lead on a 4.10 differential assembly. Can I put that in my 83 rear axel?
And if I disconnect the rear drive linkage and try shifting in and out of 4wd, and if it still doesn't work that tell me that should replace the transmission instead?

[e2stew]

Update-
I got the Tercel. The the previous owner had a receipt for the trans that they swapped and it said it was the same year 83.
But even in 4wd I can not get it to go into the EL gear.
Does that mean it is not an 83. I thought they only had 6speed in 83.
Also I hope I didn't do any damage, now I have nocking over bumps.
Maybe I just missed that on the test drive.

So looks like I'm back to swapping it with another 83 trans???
Any other suggestions?

Also I do have some noise from rear wheel(?) but that was already there.
Wheel bearing??

Thanks

[tercel4wdrules]

You can replace just the rear axle ring & pinion (pumpkin), without replacing the whole rear axle, the internals are interchangeable. Your assumption of the rear wheels trying to turn faster than the front would be correct, since the 3.73 ratio in the rear will want to turn faster than the shorter 4.10 up front.

The 6 speed 3.73:1 Z52F was used in the 83-84 cars. The later Z54F 4.10:1 was used starting on the 1985 model until production ceased with the 1988 model. They could've listed the trans from an 83, but not everyone knows there were two different differential ratios between 83 and 88. Or that 83 could've gotten a newer 4.10 installed at some point.

I would just swap the rear differential internals with the 4.10, since it appears to have the 3.73 in the back.

It can be hard to engage EL gear, you have to really push the shifter to the left, you'll feel the shifter moving further past 1st gear. The later 85 and up cars have a nifty EL gear indicator light on the dash.

The knocking over bumps sounds like a suspension-related problem.

Good luck...

[e2stew]

Thanks, I will look for 4.10 differential parts or assemblely.
I was also thinking that I might try and lift the car off the gound so the wheels can spin.
Then try and run the car in 4wd and see if there are any issues with it running.
Does that seem like a reasonable way to check the transmission for problems or just a waste of time?
Are there any numbers I could see at that point to identify the transmission?
And or if disassemble the rear differential any way to which ratio it is?

Thanks

[tercel4wdrules]

I don't really see a reason to jack up the car and run it. The transmission is good as long as it's quiet, shifts well without grinding, etc. I highly recommend you refrain from running it in 4WD on dry pavement until you correct the problem. The drivetrain is binding every time you do and that's what makes it so difficult to switch out of 4WD, but even when everything is good, it can be hard to switch back to FWD sometimes depending on the tire wear.

I don't think there's a number on the transaxle itself to identify whether it's a Z52F or Z54F, but you can always remove the front diff cover to count the number of teeth on the ring and pinion. Another way to tell (and I learned this from the local JDM importer) is to count the number of teeth on the speedometer gear that you can pull out from the trans, it will either be 20 or 22 teeth. I can search to find which one corresponds to which if you count them.

As for figuring out the ratio of the rear diff, I've heard that the ratio is stamped somewhere on the pumpkin, or you can count the number of teeth on the ring & pinion as well.

If you have bad rear wheel bearings (not uncommon), you will hear a distinct rhythmic whirling/roaring coming from the rear of the car, it's easier to hear when you're sitting in the back. There are a few threads dedicated to this on the forums if you perform a Search.

Hope this helps...

[xirdneh]

This is the surefire way to tell if you have the wrong differential match
jack up one side of the car so both wheels spin
put trans in 4wd and neutral
mark top of both tires with paint or chalk or something
rotate one tire ten times and count the number of rotations on both
if differetials are correct the mark will be at the same place on both tires thru all ten rotations
if they are not correct the mark will be off further on each revolution
at the end of ten they will be one revolution off
thats because the rings have 41 teeth on both gear ratios
but the pinion has 10 teeth on the 4.1 vs 11 teeth on the 3.73

[Petros]

There is a '85 Tercel4wd in the Arlington WA Pull-a-part with the trans and rear diff still in it. The odo showed 376k miles on it, but it ended up in the yard because it had a blown head gasket (bad radiator), so I would guess the rear end is good (and the trans too). This is about an hour drive north for you, you can get the rear diff out of it (it is the 4.1 rear end) for about $30, but you have to pull it yourself. The trans is would also be cheap, but it does not sound like you need a trans, just a matching rear diff. I will be happy to help you get it out, it will not take long and the yard is not far from my workplace. they close early in winter at 5 pm.

Do the test that Xirdneh above recomends and see which ratio you have in front and rear. Than you know what you need to match the rear.

I agree with Tercel4wdrules, it seems very unlikely you have a 5 speed trans, if you have the 4wd trans, it should have the EL first gear (it only works when in 4wd btw, which might be why you can not engage it).

PM me if you want to meet at the Arlington Pull-A-part sometime (saturday morning works for me, or sunday afternoon).

[e2stew]

Thanks everyone.

I will the test that Xirdneh suggests.
Can I just lift one side though? And if so which side? I'm not sure how the 4wd works on the Tercel 4wd works but I assumed that because there is no limited slip that in the rear both or just one side(not sure) has power when in 4wd. And that if it just is one side it would be the opposite front tire that has power. For example how i though 4x4 works is front drivers side and rear passenger side.

Petros, that is a very kind offer and I will take you up on it once I have have answers from Xirdneh's test.

[xirdneh]

should not matter what side though i have always done the right side
probably cause i'm right handed
it seemed like the right thing to do

[e2stew]

I did Xirdneh's wheel spin test and it confirmed everyone's suspicions.
The rear wheel had one extra rotation after ten turns of front wheel.
So looks like I will be swapping out the rear differential with the '85 or newer 4.10

There was about 1" of play between the rotation of the front and rear wheel.
Is that normal, or because of different drive ratios, or a sign of something else?
It went in and out of 4wd fine during test and got it into EL as well.

For switching to the 4.10 would it be easier to swap in the right differential or swap in a whole rear axle with the 4.10 in it.
I did the test on the drivers side, maybe I should have done it on the passenger because I have a lot of noise coming from passenger rear wheel I think.
No sure if its bearing or or really bad worn tire noise.
The reasons I ask about the axle is if it is the wheel bearing it might be easier than replacing them and sealing a new gasket to the differential case.
Also the FSM shows that you need a puller to pull out the wheel axles, (which I do not have) to mesh the gears on a new differential right?

Suggestions?
Thanks