Lifts, Front spring and hat options

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SynthDesign
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Lifts, Front spring and hat options

Post by SynthDesign » Tue Oct 26, 2010 11:20 pm

Setup, KYB silver inserts, 84 Camry 4cyc springs/ hats, stock bearing plates

I'm getting clunk and top out on my driverside and only have roughly 1500 miles on my front KYB inserts. I'm starting to think my driving style is one of the main culprits as well as the camry spring might be a bit too firm. I also, after talking to Petros, think the front swaybar is NOT large enough with the lift to handle aggressive street driving. Honestly it handles great off road at slow speeds, but at speed, the KYB's seem under dampened.
At this point I'm think the insert might of been bad or I broke it prematurely. Driver side is fine. I think I paid maybe $20 plus shipping for the insert so not that big of a deal.

Thoughts towards front Barto BC style lifted spring and hat combos? Anyone tried something else up front?

What are other peoples thoughts on other company's inserts?

Anyone tried a different lower strut housing or insert/ spring all together?

I know the 83 to 88 2wd front strut assembly will drop the vehicle 1.25" on a 4wd model.
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SynthDesign
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Re: Lifts, Front spring and hat options

Post by SynthDesign » Tue Nov 09, 2010 4:14 pm

So Petros and I have set off to explore spring options.


Items of exploration: AW11 MR2s

85 and 86 use the same strut plate mounting configuration as our T4WDs. It sits 16mm higher than the stock tercel mount(perfect for lowering, not lifting).
IMG_0002.JPG
IMG_0003.JPG
They seem like a stiffer setup than the T4WD units

The MR2 strut I had lying around has the same case length, same compressed length but 10mm more travel. If I rember correctly, Oct of 86 and later are different so I need to do some quick reffernce work to be official.
IMG_0001.JPG
AW11 MR2 is on the left
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Last edited by SynthDesign on Tue Nov 09, 2010 7:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Petros
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Re: Lifts, Front spring and hat options

Post by Petros » Tue Nov 09, 2010 6:26 pm

Good work Synth.

I also did some double checking of front and rear spring rates, and here is what I have determined (btw, the earlier numbers I posted on another thread are in error);

FRont stock Tercel4wd: 250 lb/in
Rear stock: 270 lb/in

'88 Corolla GTS/Celica front: 270 lb/in
Pathfinder rear: 328 lb/in

'85 MR2 front: 285 lb/in '
85 MR3 rear: 344 to 1300 lb/in (variable, gets stiffer as it compresses, it should ride at about 450 lb/in)

IF anyone can give me the dimensions of the Camry spring I can calculate the spring rate for that too. I need, accurately measured, the wire dia.(you must use a caliper or mircometer), the outside coil dia. the number of active coils (not total, but ones that actually compress).

One thing that might be interesting to try is to install the MR2 rear struts into the front, with the MR2 front top strut mount, and perhaps one of these heavier springs like the MR2 fronts in the rear.

Also realize there is another issue beside spring rate, we need to know the free length because with a higher spring rate the ride height will not come down as much with the weight of the a lighter car on the stiffer springs. As Snyth found out if you do not have enough extension left on the strut (same is true with the rear shocks), you will damage top seal when the strut extends, topping out, going over bumps.

Also, if you cut a spring down to reduce the ride height these numbers are no longer valid, the spring rate gets stiffer as you cut off each coil. Though it is not a strong effect, if you have say 7 active coils (as on the pathfinder rear springs) and you cut one off, it only gets stiffer by a ratio of 7/6=1.167 or about 17 percent (from 328 to 383 lb/in). This will hardly be noticeable, you need large changes to notice a difference.

We should get some more spring rate information from other cars too, what we want to do is try and keep the ratio of front to rear spring rates about the same as stock to keep the balance similar. OR we will also have to add different anti-sway bars to correct the in-balance. With the stock anti-sway bars, if we get the rear springs too stiff relative to the front, you will increase oversteer and risk lifting a rear tire in a tight turn. IF we get the front springs too stiff relative to the rear we risk heavy understeer, and lift a front wheel in a hard turn.

I want stiffer rear springs since the car already has understeer, it should tighten up the rear and reduce body roll, and reduce the understeer. I will need this before I get the 4age engine swap done anyway to handle the extra power without going squirely. I will want to install some better rear bushings as well.
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SynthDesign
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Re: Lifts, Front spring and hat options

Post by SynthDesign » Wed Dec 15, 2010 4:17 am

Petros,
Did you do the math on the early camry springs? If not I can give you the measurements to calculate.
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Re: Lifts, Front spring and hat options

Post by Petros » Wed Dec 15, 2010 12:38 pm

Camary spring rate is 230 lb/in. Less than the stock Tercel4wd front spring at 250 lb/in, which would explain why they reduce the understeer (less stiff in the front reduces weight transfer and reduces understeer).

IT is longer of course and accounts for the extra height, but I noticed that your T4wd did not ride hard. I guess they wanted the Camary to ride soft for the typical US driver (I do not care for soft mushy rides).
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SynthDesign
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My tercel:: The General, 85 SR5 w/ Sunroof,Olive Drab paint, Black Interior, custom steel bumpers, Barto BC lift, 1.67L BUILT 3AC w/ Weber Carb. 346,000 miles and counting since restoration
Location: Seattle WA
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Re: Lifts, Front spring and hat options

Post by SynthDesign » Sat Dec 25, 2010 9:28 am

Petros, You were RIGHT!
To put it politely, the 88 Corolla springs are the "Bee's Knees" or as I stated it "They're Money", if you like a firm setup.
The camry spring is close to an inch in free height taller and stands about an inch higher with the vehicle mounted on the ground than the Corolla springs. The Corolla springs sit about an Inch taller than the factory tercel springs and handle so much better.
SOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO Much Better!

The 270lb'ish spring weight up front gives the car a solid feel. Body roll is much less and the weight transition is much more stable and with much less oversteer. The road feel is a bit more noticeable. Especially over rutted fire roads while running standard tire pressure. I aired down to 25psi for a quick offroad trial and the drive back was bit more comfortable. I bet a good quality tire would help a bit too.


Reference: 88 Toyota Corolla All-Trac Wagon Front springs and perches with 85 T4WD strut lowers, T4WD KYB GR2 inserts and T4WD bearing plate= 1.1" lift over stock with 15% firmer ride.


I'm gonna try a set of aw11 mr2 inserts later this weekend and see how that changes ride height and feel. I got the coolest tool for doing springs. I can swap springs completely in all of 30 minutes now so I'm more than happy to play around with springs. I can even do the rears by myself

Coolest tool I've bought in quite a quite a long while. Had to pull the return spring but gets 170mm now of compression instead of 75mm.
http://www.maxtool.com/us/products/ME4098.asp
ME4098.jpg
I'll post some comparison pics as soon as I get a card reader for the camera. Lost mine somewhere.
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Last edited by SynthDesign on Tue Sep 27, 2011 12:10 am, edited 1 time in total.
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SynthDesign
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Re: Lifts, Front spring and hat options

Post by SynthDesign » Mon Mar 28, 2011 1:21 pm

Found some pics to compare stuffs.
IMG_0028.JPG
84 Camry 4cyc ------------- 88 Corolla All-Trac 4cyc ----------- 85 Tercel 4WD
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SynthDesign
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Location: Seattle WA
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Re: Lifts, Front spring and hat options

Post by SynthDesign » Tue Jul 19, 2011 1:47 am

AW11 Vs Stock T4WD,
both using stock T4WD inserts and springs
awll vs t4wd.JPG
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Chard
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Re: Lifts, Front spring and hat options

Post by Chard » Mon Mar 02, 2020 9:20 pm

Petros wrote:
Tue Nov 09, 2010 6:26 pm
FRont stock Tercel4wd: 250 lb/in
Rear stock: 270 lb/in

'88 Corolla GTS/Celica front: 270 lb/in
Pathfinder rear: 328 lb/in

'85 MR2 front: 285 lb/in '
85 MR3 rear: 344 to 1300 lb/in (variable, gets stiffer as it compresses, it should ride at about 450 lb/in)
Petros,
Bringing back an old thread...
I'm currently looking at making an adjustable coil over setup for the front of the 4age rally tercel with sleeves and perches for 2.5" diameter springs. I want to make sure I get a good spring rate up front so I trying to find out what the stock rate is and adjust from there. I calculated my fronts and got about 104 lb/in. Online calculators gave me about the same. My fronts have a coil cut off.
What equation did you use to get your numbers?
I'm hoping to put together a low(er) cost adjustable ride height solution.

Thanks!
-Chard

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Re: Lifts, Front spring and hat options

Post by Petros » Wed Mar 04, 2020 2:41 am

I used the standard spring rate equation for K, using my own measurements I took directly off the springs, and the standard elastic modulus for common steel (all steels are similar).

Image
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Chard
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Re: Lifts, Front spring and hat options

Post by Chard » Wed Mar 04, 2020 6:48 am

Petros wrote:
Wed Mar 04, 2020 2:41 am
I used the standard spring rate equation for K, using my own measurements I took directly off the springs, and the standard elastic modulus for common steel (all steels are similar).

Image
I think the math is off. Everything Ive seen shows stock springs on other toyotas of similar weight and era being much lower.
Screenshot_20200304-073709_Chrome.jpg
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-Chard

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Petros
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Re: Lifts, Front spring and hat options

Post by Petros » Thu Mar 05, 2020 5:41 pm

best way to know is to measure it direcly with a spring scale. My comparison is still valid between them for which is more stiff and which is less. I do not recall the details of what I used, it should be in the original post when we had a discussion of springs in a thread.

btw, you can see by the equation how cutting a coil or two off the spring will make it stiffer. though it may reduce the length at a given load, it will have less coils to wind up.
'87 Tercel 4wd SR5 (current engine swap project)
'84 Tercel 4wd (daily driver, with on going mods)
'92 Mazda MPV 4wd (wife's daily driver)
'85 Tercel 4wd DLX auto(daughter's daily driver)
'01 Honda Civic (other daughter's daily driver)

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