Car starts sometimes...

ArleneK · Post by **ArleneK** » Mon Nov 15, 2004 5:29 pm

Hello all! I am looking for some advice. I have a 1983 Tercel wagon, and in the past few weeks, have been having troubles starting the car. It turns over for as long as I hold the key, but does not fire up to start. I have changed the fuel filter since this started happening and it has not helped. The car seems to start okay when it's cold, and I start it first thing in the morning. However, if I try it an hour or two later, it won't start. I try starting it without a foot on the gas, then I try again, putting the gas pedal half to the floor or all the way, while turning the ignition and it just turns over without firing up. However, if I wait about 20 minutes, then I can sometimes start it again.
I put some methyl stuff in the gas tank in case condensation has built up and put water in the gas. Also, my gas tank is quite rusty, and so I can only fill it up half way, or gas fumes fill the car. I am not sure if perhaps the rusty bits could have blocked a line up the carburator.
Anyway, any ideas on this will really help!
Thanks,
Arlene

takza · Post by **takza** » Mon Nov 15, 2004 8:10 pm

If you know anything about mechanics...you could remove the carb line from the fuel pump to see if it is pumping gas...or test the fuel pump to see if it works.

Check for spark at a plug...but not with a lot of gas vapors around.

Either lack of gas or spark???

GTSSportCoupe · Post by **GTSSportCoupe** » Tue Nov 16, 2004 10:18 am

Just to cover the basics: Other than the leaky gas tank, is your car fairly well maintained? (Eg. Decent: sparkplugs, leads, cap/rotor, air filter, correct ignition timing, etc?)

From what you have shared, I would agree there is a good chance your problems are related to the fuel system. If you don't mind putting a bit of money into the car, I would recommend getting a good solid fuel tank from a wrecker and replacing your leaky one. This would be a good point to start. The tank is fairly easy to replace actually (if you con't mind crawling under the back of your car). I replaced my tank with one from a wrecker a while back (I was having leak problems from both the top of my tank as well as the fuel return line that goes into the tank). It was about $60CAD ($40USD) to buy. Not a bad investment for safety's sake.

As Takza mentioned, there is also a chance there is a problem with your ignition system. When your car is in the state where it won't start, pull one of the leads off the plugs, and plug a spare spark plug in the end. Ground the side of the sparkplug to your engine or chassis (keep your hands away from it - hold onto the lead), and have someone crank over the engine. You can visually check that your ignition system is generating spark.

Any easy way to check if you are getting fuel, you can remove the top from your air cleaner and look down into the carb. Again, have someone turn over the engine and pump the gas a bit while you look down the carb. If your engine is warm and the choke is open, you should be able to see fuel spurting out of the jet as the car is attempting to start. (please wear safety goggles - I've had my carb backfire into my face before - not fun!)

The above tests are just a start. I would recommend downloading the factory repair manual from the tech section of http://www.tercel4wd.com . Have a read through the fuel troubleshooting part and you will learn more about what the problem might be. I'm fairly certain they discuss possible issues with starting your engine hot (your problem).

Let us know what you find and we can help some more.

ArleneK · Post by **ArleneK** » Tue Nov 16, 2004 6:17 pm

Thanks for all the input so far. I know that the plugs are getting spark. I'm pretty sure that there is gas going into the carb but will ask a friend who has been working on this with me to double check. I'll also check out the fuel pump!

I have tried downloading that factory manual about 10 times, and it just does not download. Not sure why its not working. I have tons of room on my arkibbs@yahoo.ca account if anyone can email it to me!

One more thing I need to find out is how to adjust the idle! It's so low, that I have to coast to a stop in neutral with my foot on the gas or it stalls out. Is this easy to do? I'm sure its in that manual if I can get it!
Anyway, thanks for all your ideas, will keep you posted on what I checked out.

Arlene

takza · Post by **takza** » Wed Nov 17, 2004 5:57 am

You could try to download a free download manager from here:

<a href='http://nonags.com/' target='_blank'>http://nonags.com/</a>

You want one that will allow resuming downloads and that integrates with IntExplr..

I use Leechget...not on this site anymore though.

GTSSportCoupe · Post by **GTSSportCoupe** » Wed Nov 17, 2004 7:07 am

ArleneK wrote: I have tried downloading that factory manual about 10 times, and it just does not download. Not sure why its not working. I have tons of room on my arkibbs@yahoo.ca account if anyone can email it to me!

I think it's about 60MB or so, so it does take a while to download. Make sure you have Adobe Acrobat Reader installed on your machine. Click on the link, and leave your computer for a couple of hours. For whatever reason, you can't just right click on the link and go 'save as' like you can with most downloads like this. You have to just click on it, and allow IE/Adobe to download it and open it. Once it is open, you can click 'save a copy' in Adobe, and save it on your computer somewhere. If you are on dial-up, you will have to wait a really long time (hours).

Hope that helps.

tercel4wdrules · Post by **tercel4wdrules** » Wed Nov 17, 2004 4:48 pm

You'll need Adobe Acrobat Reader 6.0. I can't download it with Reader 5.0.

russkiypenguin1 · Post by **russkiypenguin1** » Wed Nov 17, 2004 7:55 pm

I would recommend $60 for an el cheapo tune-up. Replace the distributor cap, rotor and wires before you take it. They'll set the timing and idle while they're in there and I would suspect either the timing or the idle.

ArleneK · Post by **ArleneK** » Wed Nov 17, 2004 8:47 pm

I may get that gas tank changed eventually, but the lowest prices I've gotten from wreckers is about $120 CDN which is quite a bit for me right now! I just fill it up halfway everytime, which seems to work for now!
Thanks for the description on fixing the idle. I finally was able to download that manual, and had to get the 6.0 version, as I had 5.0 of Adobe, and found the idle diagram.
The tune up sounds good too. I think I'll adjust that idle on my own, and then drive my car up to my parent's place. My stepdad put a clutch in for me last year (big job!), and he should be able to work on it. I will keep posting on here if he has any questions.
I'm not giving up on that car yet!
Thanks,
Arlene

GTSSportCoupe · Post by **GTSSportCoupe** » Thu Nov 18, 2004 7:13 am

ArleneK wrote: I'm not giving up on that car yet!

Good stuff!!

dug320 · Post by **dug320** » Sun Nov 21, 2004 7:49 pm

It sounds like an electrical issue. I would try spraying the wires and distrubter with lots of WD-40. At the very least it will dry it all out. I would also consider checking the timing belt to see if it is intack.

Teddy1 · Post by **Teddy1** » Wed Nov 24, 2004 1:48 pm

Actually, that starting issue sounds like it COULD be the igntion module (transistorized spark box) under your distributor cap.

The last three 83-87 Toyota Tercels I have fixed (with cranking but no start issue) had this problem.

Also possibly of interest to anyone here who LOVES their Tercel... if you have the integrated, solid state ignition (HEI style, where the coil, ignitor and associated parts are all internal to the distributor) the way to PREVENT the ignition module from dying is to not leave the ignition key in the "on" position, without the car running.

A month ago, I repaired another one of these cars with this issue... and the owner (John) admitted that he often turned the ignition switch to the "on" position, but DIDN'T start the car... and then left it that way, sometimes for hours.

The book specifies NOT to do this, for a reason... and that reason is, that in the "on" posistion, the transistors are force fed high current 12 volts by the ignition relay... but, if the car is not RUNNING (ie; plugs are not firing) eventually the coil will get hot (from continual charge and no discharge) and up to 7 joules of current will fall BACK on the transistors in that ignition module, the transistors go into high frequency oscillation while reversing a lot of current, and fail due to over temp and reversion.

So! Solution to the ignition module issue? Don't move the ignition switch to the "on" position unless ACTUALLY starting the car... move the key to "Accessory", instead. Neither of my Tercels (4 wheel drive wagons) have EVER had this problem, and I have now put a combined 450,000 miles on them.

Arlene, your starting issue SHOULD be easy to nail down... since you specified that it is exacerbated or worsened after the car gets warm.

This is LIKELY the ignition module or coil... it is doubtful that it is a spark issue.

The OTHER possibility, since you mentioned the low idle speed/stalling issue, is a vacuum leak, maybe AT the distributor? (these cars use vacuum advance/retard lines on the dual pot distributor).

Although you have verified that there IS spark, I would bet that the spark is either a) weak, or b) timed incorrectly.

Fuel delivery is via a mechanical pump, right there at the end of the 3A-C motor, and basically, if the car starts SOMETIMES, and runs, it is doubtful that it's the pump. When these fail, the car won't start.

Hope that helped.

Teddy
In Seattle, WA

Soon to be building a high compression 7A-C big valve motor for his beloved Wagon

Teddy1 · Post by **Teddy1** » Wed Nov 24, 2004 1:51 pm

Ooops!

My previous post included a line that said:

This is LIKELY the ignition module or coil... it is doubtful that it is a spark issue.

Uhhhhh... that SHOULD have read:

This is LIKELY the ignition module or coil... it is doubtful that it is a FUEL issue.

Hehehehe.

Sorry

Teddy1 · Post by **Teddy1** » Wed Nov 24, 2004 1:54 pm

Also, I have to disagree with an earlier post...

Do NOT spray WD-40 (or any petroleum distallate) on old wires and hoses. The insulation (rubber, elastomers, synthetics) are getting old in these cars, and the oxidation combined with petroleum will only serve to speed up the decay.

You CAN use spray silicone, however... the kind that Napa sells in the blue can (Mac's Silicone Spray) is excellent... however, avoid belts and pulleys with the silicone.

- Teddy

GTSSportCoupe · Post by **GTSSportCoupe** » Wed Nov 24, 2004 4:12 pm

Teddy wrote: oon to be building a high compression 7A-C big valve motor for his beloved Wagon

PLEASE document and take pics of your 7AC buildup! (or at least update us as you do it). As you probably saw in another thread, there are a few of us here interested in doing this too!

Very good point above BTW. I dimly remember this same thing happening to my parents tercel 4wd when I was a kid. I think there is a very good chance you have nailed the problem down.