4AGE swap into 85 4WD

[SynthDesign]

UPDATE:
Major Problems......Setbacks
So I brought the 3ac and 4age flywheels to "Ballard's Best Welding"
I left both flywheels with detailed instructions and my info waiting for a quote. A quote only! After not hearing back( I called 7 or 8 times) and no return phone calls for two weeks, I returned to see where things were at. And when I say returned, I made 4 trips during regular business hours and on the 4th trip someone was actually at the shop. The three other times there was sign out front saying the were "out on call/ would return soon". WTF

When I arrived at the shop on Monday, I was in for a HUGE disappointment. They had decided instead of calling me, they would just do it. And when I mean do it, I mean fuck everything up. EVERYTHING.

In a way I feel like this is my fault, but I did find 5 good references for them on Judy's list. Guess that means squat.

They tried to weld the holes shut with a mig welder. That didn't work so they used a s.s. tig welder. No Brazing! Idiots. I could of done that at home with my own tools if I wanted to destroy things. The inside edge of the 3ac flywheel is now warped severely. They then decided they would do me a favor and re-index the holes for me. Something I stated I had a machine shop lined up for already.
Their procedure to do this was bolting the two flywheels together and using a drill press to drill the holes. No resurfacing to the mounting surface. They figured they'd just leave the welds overhung. The two flywheels were bolted together w/o using a spacer between them either. This caused both flywheel mounting surfaces to warp. Yes, Now even the nice original 4AGE flywheel is unusable. The holes they drilled were all over the place, not one lined up. So now they've destroyed both flywheels and are still trying to charge me a $100.

So now I need another 3ac flywheel before I can even get it to the right person to weld it. The right person by the way is Mike at Cast Iron Repair 360-657-7660 in Marysville WA. His quote to fill the holes is $20 and he's been welding cast iron for close to 50 years. "The Right Guy for the Job"
No he doesn't have a computer. Old school, Old Timer Craftsman.

Is it worth it to cut my losses and suck up the cost of another 3ac flywheel? Expensive learning lesson?

Take them to small claims for the cost of replacing the flywheels (Est 650+ through NAPA)? And all my time?

Or do I just throw a piece of scrap metal through their front window and call it even? (This was my first thought as I walked out their door on Monday and I'm a pretty calm and collected guy)

-> PM me if you have a flywheel with minimal wear to sell.
Otherwise I have to got to pull-a-part w/ a cherry picker and spend 4 plus hours for a possibly smoked 3ac flywheel. No fun for an $12 used part(yes that's all they charge) THX

[Petros]

Well, all I can say is they call it "Ballard's best welding", and my limited experience with Ballard, that sounds about right. I might be able to get one for you from another list member,and deliver it to marysville for you. It is not far and I have one I need welded too. $20 sounds like a deal.

[GTSSportCoupe]

I'd love to see this project work out, and can help you if you end up needing it.

I work at a University, and we have a highly capable machine shop in our dept (Physics&Astronomy). If you sent me a 3AC flywheel, I could have it modified to fit the 8 bolt 4age crank. I've got a couple 4age flywheels at home, as well as a 4age crank that we could test it with. I'm in Victoria BC Canada.

Let me know.

[SirNik83]

I had a talk with my dad about putting a 4age in my tercel. My dad gave me my first tercel, and he is a mechanical engineer, whos best friend is a machinist.

We were talking about the need of an 8 hole fly wheel. He suggested that the best way to get it would be to turn the 4age flywheel down in a lathe and match it to the starter ring off the 3ac fly wheel. we haven't tried it, and its all talk. but my dad was saying his friend would be able to do it. and made it sound pretty easy.

If GTSSportCoupe can get access to a machine shop on campus they may be able to pull this off.

My dad was saying that the heat of welding could be an issue. This might be the solution.

[SynthDesign]

I'd love to see this project work out, and can help you if you end up needing it.

I work at a University, and we have a highly capable machine shop in our dept (Physics&Astronomy). If you sent me a 3AC flywheel, I could have it modified to fit the 8 bolt 4age crank. I've got a couple 4age flywheels at home, as well as a 4age crank that we could test it with. I'm in Victoria BC Canada.

Let me know.

The machine shop isn't an issue but thanks a lot for the offer. I have a friend who works as a cnc programmer who's going to index the holes .

Something Positive
I had a guy come over and buy the gts FWD trans last night. He looked at the swap and said it was looking great so far. He's done many Toyota swaps and thinks I have a good plan going.

I'm getting an itch to pull the motor back out and start rebuilding it. It'd be nice to have the garage space for a bit. I'm stuck with it there till the header comes in. I hate waiting!

[Mattel]

Don't give up Synth!
it can be done

[shogun]

its refreshing how people are getting more performance out of their tercs, nice job man, right now i was going to do a supra brake swap, but 12inch brakes wont fit my wheels, also im installing EDIS to my car, im sick and tired of not finding parts for the dizzy, i now put a head made for economy and im getting 56km per gallon

and mr synth, let me know if you need parts for the 4age i have some running around, tore apart 3 gt3 corollas

[SynthDesign]

I had a talk with my dad about putting a 4age in my tercel. My dad gave me my first tercel, and he is a mechanical engineer, whos best friend is a machinist.

We were talking about the need of an 8 hole fly wheel. He suggested that the best way to get it would be to turn the 4age flywheel down in a lathe and match it to the starter ring off the 3ac fly wheel. we haven't tried it, and its all talk. but my dad was saying his friend would be able to do it. and made it sound pretty easy.

If GTSSportCoupe can get access to a machine shop on campus they may be able to pull this off.

My dad was saying that the heat of welding could be an issue. This might be the solution.

So I stated this earlier in this post But...
There is NO Way a 4age clutch nor machined down flywheel will fit in the T4WD bell housing. They are to large of a diameter. It just ain't gonna happen. You'd have to machine out a 1/2" from the inside of the bell housing to clear it. The bell housing is only about 1/2" I think.

Another option is a CNC'd steel 8 bolt 3ac flywheel. I'm gonna go with the welding first, last option a custom flywheel.

Here's what one looks like. I was quoted about $200 plus heat treating.

flywheel_front.JPG

Man this would be so much easier if it was a RHD vehicle like the Aussie posts.

I was told an AE86 header would clear the subframe from an Aussie guy who's done a few so far, so I finally ordered one up.

[Petros]

Hey Mattel,

How did they clear the hood on that 4age powered Tercel? The engine is a bit taller and it appears you need to either lower the mounts or somehow bump up the hood.

ON machining the 4age flywheel to fit: There is a lot more to making it work than just diameter. I looked this over on mine, comparing both the 4age and the 3a flywheels, and there might be several problems. The clutch on the 4age flywheel is larger in diameter (which is much needed, esp with more power), but it appears the outside dia of the 4age clutch is larger than the inside dia of the 3a ring gear. So either you have to risk having the clutch bolt into too little remaining metal, or you use the smaller 3a flywheel and clutch.

You should also test fit the cut down flywheel with the larger clutch in the Tercel tranny bell housing to make sure it will clear. And you have to determine what the new clutch position is relative to the Tercel t/o bearing location. If the face of the flywheel is a different distance from the end of the crankshaft you would have to change the center hub depth, or add a shim. IIRC the clutch face is further away from the back of the crankshaft on the 4age.

You also have to check the trans input shaft spline on the Tercel 4wd trans is the same as the AE86 trans input shaft (I doubt they are the same size and have the same spline and flange). If they are different you will have to have a custom friction disk made with the Tercel center spine on the 4age disk.

I suspect it would be like making a whole new flywheel from the 4age flywheel. It might be a lot easier to get a 4afe crank (it has a 6 bolt flywheel) and install it in the 4age engine. I am pretty sure they are dimensionally the same, at least with the early 4age crank. The later ones (1988 and on?) went to larger dia connecting rod journals, and different con rods to match.

The crank from pull-a-part would only be about $15, but a lot of work to get it out. And I am sure the 6 bolt flywheel is plenty strong to take the loads, Toyota always goes for way overkill on their performance engines.

I think I am going to just weld and machine the 3a flywheel, and get a high performance clutch (about $300) to handle the extra power.

[SirNik83]

OK so here is what i don't understand. if you can get a "high performance" 3a clutch disc, that is the same diameter as the standard clutch disc. why couldn't you put the 4age flywheel in a lathe and turn down the diameter so that it is the size of the 3a fly wheel and then drill for the pins and install the 3a starter ring gear onto the "new" flywheel?

this is what i was trying to describe in my earlier post. don't cut the tercels bell housing, but cut down the diameter of the 4age fly wheel.

You will have to use a 3a clutch disc anyway because of the splines on the transmissions input shaft. so you are reducing the diameter of the disc. so why not reduce the diameter of the flywheel.

[Petros]

SirNick,

that could work, but that means you would have to index and redrill and tap the clutch cover bolt holes (six) and the locating pins (three) on the smaller diameter of the 3a clutch. Since the clutch disk is a smaller dia you would also have to machine the flywheel face to match the smaller clutch. You also might loose some clutch surface area in the process. This would be way more work than just welding and machining the bolt holes (or even swapping out the crankshaft for that matter).

It would likely cost less just to have a custom flywheel made, there are places that specialize in making flywheels for performance cars. I would go with titanium. I have seen aluminum flywheels, but they need steel inserts for the clutch face.

[SirNik83]

I agree it would be a lot of work. but someone offered the the possibility of a college machine shop. I took a college machining class, I bet it could be done at the college for cheap if you had someone willing to under take the project.

[SynthDesign]

Also the 4AGE flywheel back-spacing is different. It can't be used. I tried trust me, I tried. 4 machine shops, 3 performance shops and a host of forum members said Nay.

Side Note, Exedy list the max HP/Torque slip point for the factory spec OEM clutch "Dakin, I think" as 138bhp. A Center Force or Exedy Stage 1 is good for 298bhp. our diameter clutch is JUST fine

[SynthDesign]

Petros...
Great explanation. better than I could do.

[Mattel]

Hi Petros,


Yep. A Nice big scoop to give a little more engine clearance, some twin exhausts. And chrome rear view mirrors, don't forget the chrome rear view mirrors.

Here's a few more shots of this awesome custom wagon







hope this isn't a threadjack... I just wanted give Synth a little inspiration.