4AGE swap into 85 4WD

[Petros]

On a street car/daily driver there might be a point where you can go too light on the flywheel, but I have never head of it. And with my lightened stock one I am nowhere near it, I want it even lighter. No, I have not experienced what you describe. Consider that we have that extra low granny first gear, which would preclude what you describe. This I think might be more of an issue with drive train gearing and what rpm the power occurs at. That is why low end torque is real important for lower speed performance driving (as in steep hills). I drive up steep gravel roads daily in 4wd (to get home), and I have not had any problem. In fact with the lightened flywheel I do not have my speed drop off between shifts from granny first to regular first or first to second. The underpowered engine with the old flywheel means you can not really shift out of first going up a steep hill because you can not get the rpms to climb fast enough.

Flywheel weight does not affect "the power curve" at all. This must be some kind of hobby racer folk lore. Matching the weight will make the engine feel the same as before, both in throttle response and in perceived vibrations.

The concept is simple: A heavier flywheel resists changes in rpm, not good for performance, but it is good for an underpowered engine with an unskilled driver. With a production car it will help prevent inadvertent engine stalling from improper clutching. This was a marketing choice by Toyota that the econo-box car this engine was designed for, there would be a lot of students, and first time drivers considering it. If you test drive one and your first few attempts to drive away from a stop light results in you stalling it, you likely will not buy it. I should hope that the kind of mods and upgrades you are planning for your T4wd, that you are beyond that skill level. The heavier flywheel will also smooth the power pulses from the engine somewhat, reducing what most precise as a vibration. And there might be an advantage if you are under 1000 rpm (below the power curve) to prevent stalling, but with the extra low first, this should never happen. That I think is a good power trade off because I REALLY hate slow throttle response, especially for off-road driving. You will have more power at all RPMs with this new engine, and the altered flywheel will still have a substantial amount of weight, we are not going to a titanium flywheel here, just taking some weight off the stock one.

That brings up another questions that has been nagging me, we should do some reasearch to see if there are any cam grinders that speciffically make a torque producing grind putting the power down in the 4-5k rpm range or below (rather than up in the 7k plus range!). That would be an important improvement for this engine in the T4wd.

[gatemaster]

That brings up another questions that has been nagging me, we should do some reasearch to see if there are any cam grinders that speciffically make a torque producing grind putting the power down in the 4-5k rpm range or below (rather than up in the 7k plus range!). That would be an important improvement for this engine in the T4wd.

That would work for a small port head but I don't know how that type of cam will match with large port high flow intake ports. I do agree that would be the way to go if possible.

[SynthDesign]

Pics have been uploaded. I edited a few for size and will post them here too.
http://picasaweb.google.com/synthdesign ... lverBullet#

hood clearance.jpg

radiator clearance.jpg

4age 1st install.jpg

Starting on the paper work side of budget and parts.

[ARCHINSTL]

Good pix on the picasaweb! Nice photojournal!
Tom M.

[Petros]

looks like a good fit. The exhaust head pipe is going to be a tight fit. Is the hood going to clear? Or is a hood scoop in your future?

What is that other "black top" engine I see in the background of the pictures?

The port size is an interesting issue with regard to power range. The common wisdom is small ports for low speed power, large ports for high speed power. However when I worked for the Nissan factory racing team some 30 years ago, our flow bench tests showed the larger the port, the more power achieved at all RPMs. The less induction resistance, the more power you can generate. There might me a drivability issue if the fuel/air mixture is slowing and accelerating as it moves through the induction system, giving a slight lag in throttle response at certain rpm ranges, but I doubt this will be very noticeable at normal road speeds. Also, the lower the induction resistance, the better fuel economy at any speed. This I can really get into, mods that increase both power AND economy.

[keith]

High lift and short duration for low end power, more duration to increase the power at the high end. Most of the Schneider cams add about 25% to the lift. The durations range from 260° to near 300°.

[GTSSportCoupe]

That 4age looks perfectly at home in the Tercel engine bay. I'd love to do this same swap into a minty tercel, but my wife won't let me.

[gatemaster]

Code: Select all

I'd love to do this same swap into a minty tercel, but my wife won't let me.

I asked a friend of mine how he gets to go fly fishing so much without his wife complaining.
He said "I tell her when I am going fishing, I don't ask. If you ask, nine times out of ten she will give you the wrong answer".

[Typrus]

I haven't finished reading everyones posts.

Has noone here ever heard of 20vtercel.....

And have I not mentioned the steering clearance time and again?

And I KNOW FOR A FACT that flywheel issues have been mentioned.... Where are 20vtercel and 3ACPower when you need them?? Come back 3ACPower! Abandom your Rolla All-Trac and come back to the fold! (tears) lol

I have nevert had the money to go about this. Lol. Was offered a fully complete AE86 that needed a new tranny the other day for $800. I almost slapped the guy. I have no money right now lol. Now he wants to sell me his 1JZ swapped 82 Cressida for a grand.... I hate no money...
I sure have spent time crawling under Mr. Deuces and AE86's trying to mentally picture it all.

Thought-

While you are in there- check if the AE86 crossmember will bolt up to the Tercel? I've wanted to know that for some time for RWD conversion purposes....

[Typrus]

Any updates?
I once saw what equated to a flexplate with a super light clutch assembly attached. Hyper light. Between that and his titanium internals, he'd grab revs like a mad fiend. But the lack of rotating mass made startup hard and getting going took some revs to keep from stalling out.

[Petros]

I have recently looked over a AE86 front suspension and cross member, I doubt it could be made to work, it is much further back on the car than on the tercel, it has a totally different suspension design and since the car is rwd, none of the suspension parts are interchangeable. It uses trailing link/radius arm, that has its own mounts, to locate the lateral links (this is what keeps the wheel from moving forward and aft), while our car uses the front anti-sway bar through some rubber donuts to locate the lateral arms.

[SynthDesign]

looks like a good fit. The exhaust head pipe is going to be a tight fit. Is the hood going to clear? Or is a hood scoop in your future?

As for a good fit, kinda. The engine is sitting at a bit of an angle using the factory engine bracing. I beleive the exhaust will fit ok, Heat is gonna be a major issue. I may either go to a short ratio manual rack or convert the hose fittings for the power rack to a banjo fitting(nice and low profile). I'm having a problem mounting the power steering pump in parallel. A hood scoop is defiantly gonna be required. Um hum... thinking a fiberglass bit ...Camaro style

What is that other "black top" engine I see in the background of the pictures?

A friend totaled out a mr2 and I clipped it and parted what was salvageable. 129K ran great. Just in case I need another motor or trani for my AW11
I have a few of those too. You can find me on mr2OC as well.

The port size is an interesting issue with regard to power range. The common wisdom is small ports for low speed power, large ports for high speed power.

I agree completely.... but Toyota showed that both head designs produced about the same ending torque and HP. FWD or RWD.

Either way I think this is way more torque and HP than my little wagon deserves.

Has noone here ever heard of 20vtercel....And have I not mentioned the steering clearance time and again? And I KNOW FOR A FACT that flywheel issues have been mentioned...

I've heard..... but never seen.. A picture tells a thousand words, I have yet to see one installed and running. Hell any help is MUCH appreciated. And as for what other people say, I really had to document for myself so others could see what I was dealing with. The guy from Dan Fast Muffler said he could make it work as it sits but it would cook the power steering fluid. The flywheel has been mentioned but so has the possibility of a 6 bolt 4AGE crank.

Either way I have a flywheel at the welders now and will pick it up on the 2nd of January to drop it at the machine shop to have 6 holes indexed and the whole lot balanced and lightened.

My roommate isn't too keen on me working on the wire harnesses in the house so I have to wait till it gets above freezing to start work back in the garage.

[SynthDesign]

4age T4WD 1sized.jpg

4age T4WD 3sized.jpg

4age T4WD 4sized.jpg

Some things to ponder

[Petros]

Do I understand that you are going to use the original Tercel alternator and the power steering pump, or are you going to try and use the ones mounted on the RWD 4age engine? It seems to me the 4age set-up should work, even though they are mounted on opposite sides of the engine than the 3a installation. You have to wire the alternator and the redo the p/s plumbing, but you would end up with much less plumbing.

[SynthDesign]

The Alternator mounted up right now is the one off the original 4age using the 3ac mounts. I'm trying to uses as many tercel parts as possible. It is the exact same alternator as the tercel 3ac's thou(plugs, mounting point and wattage are the same. I think I'm going to have to fab a power steering mount as the stock tercel pump doesn't line up with the 4age pulleys. If I can find a short ratio manual rack( going back to pull-a-part to play in the snow), than I may not use power steering which makes things way easier.