4AGE swap into 85 4WD

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Neu
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Re: 4AGE swap into 85 4WD

Post by Neu »

Power steering is over rated. As soon as my p/s squeaked i got rid of it. I haven't had any troubles.
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Re: 4AGE swap into 85 4WD

Post by SynthDesign »

I hear the same thing with everyone who went to a manual rack from P.S. . The question is, if can we find a manual rack with a short ratio. I'm hoping a VW rack might work. Something with a 2.25:1 lock to lock instead of 4.75:1 that's in the PS version. I'm gonna look at an AE86 and AE92 rack today. I don't think they'll work plus it would require buying a short ratio kit in addition.

Any one else ever put in a custom short ratio rack that you know of? I have the Quiafe kit for my AW11 mr2 which also works in the AE86. I wonder if it would fit in a T4WD manual rack?
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Petros
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Re: 4AGE swap into 85 4WD

Post by Petros »

I have owned Tercel 4wd with both P/S and without, P/s is far suppieror. I agree than in most small cars powersteering is overrated and unnecessary, I also do not like having extra power robbing equipment on any car. Most of the small light cars and trucks I have owned have been manual steering and I never felt P/s was necessary, but for some reason the manual Tercel steering is a beast in parking lots and at low speeds. The Tercel P/s in my opinion is necessary and worth it. In deep mud or rocky roads it is a large benefit and it reduces driver fatigue greaty, and improves saftey, an off-center bump can rip the steering wheel right out of your hands, I would NEVER want to drive that way on some of the steep rocky mountain roads around where I live. The manual steering on the Tercel 4wd is only reasonable at highway speeds on good roads. With the added weight up front of the 4age engine, I would think the p/s would be necessary for safety. I am going to keep mine when I do my engine swap, even if it means compromising the exhaust system.

ANd unforutuantly power and non-power racks are not even interchangeable. The P/S rack is larger diameter and the mounts welded on the cross member are larger, you can only change from manual to powersteering (or visaversa) by changine over the whole cross member and the rack. Going to a manual short ratio rack would make it undriveable in parking lots and rought roads (you would not be able to hold on to the steering wheel) unless you put in a massively large steering wheel (which would defeat the purpose).

I would avise against removing the p/s, espcially when adding all that weight and power of the 4age engine. It should not be that difficult to get custom hydraulic lines made that route the p/s hoses differently to make room for the header. That is my plan for my car.
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Re: 4AGE swap into 85 4WD

Post by SynthDesign »

Petros,
Thx and good to know. I didn't know that the cross member's rack mounts were different between ps and manual racks. Again I have never owned or driven a T4WD with a manual rack.

Where all SR5's equipped with power steering? I've only owned SR5s and not one has had a manual rack. Seems to be the same in the junkyards with SR5s too. Couldn't find any non PS equipped Toyota today speaking of. I did find a cool skid plate off a Dodge label Mitsubishi Monterro.
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Re: 4AGE swap into 85 4WD

Post by Petros »

I have owned an '83 SR5 w/o power steering (drove it for 2+ years), and an '84 DX without it, I now have an '84 SR5 with it that I have driven for 4+ years. I like the power steering. When I stripped the '84 (it was a parts car) I considered salvaging the manual rack to use as a spare if mine failed. But after comparing them carefully I noticed how much would have to be swapped to convert from P/S to manual I just junked it with the rest of the car. It may have become standard on the SR5 after '83 (it was a beast to drive in parking lots and slow heavy traffic).
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Re: 4AGE swap into 85 4WD

Post by Neu »

Just to chime in, I drive with my power steering pump disabled. I dont think it's bad at all. I drive offroad all the time, and I just pay attention and get ready for when I think it's ganna get rough.

I dont see any problem overall, i can turn at a dead stop not too hard.

Maybe i'm just really buff (totally am). haha.
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Re: 4AGE swap into 85 4WD

Post by SynthDesign »

I started fab'ing mounts for the power steering pump and Alternator. Its gonna take a bit of work. The alternator bracket is gonna look funky but oh well. I used part of the 4age power steering mount. I gotta grab some bar stock to finish it but the basics of the motor are starting to appear.
The throttle body and EGR are hosed up and I'm looking at intake mounting options. It doesn't matter too much right now anyway as the motor is coming back out to be rebuilt.
The majority of the 4age wire harness is labeled and I'm about ready to start clipping. I'm kinda scared to start that. I'm probably gonna pull the T4WD harness before I start clipping anyway.
I have the old PS lines out and I'm gonna run to western fitting and have them order some banjo fittings to replace the lines in.
I'm still waiting on the exhaust flanges and the exhaust header but I'm assured it should fit w/ the power steering rack line modifications.

I will start on the fuel pump tomorrow after work as well. I'm hoping to do in-tank, but we'll see. Fuel lines... filter...

Do I need a surge catch for the gas tank? Will the factory lines handle the return pressure? Should I install a fuel pressure gauge?
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SynthDesign
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Re: 4AGE swap into 85 4WD

Post by SynthDesign »

Also if I go to an in-tank pump I'm gonna have to have a screw-tight line from the pump to the engine, correct?

I'm gonna have to look through some post and see what other people have done for an external pump too.
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Re: 4AGE swap into 85 4WD

Post by SynthDesign »

I finally got my budget figured out. I'm sure I missed a few things, but I'm using this as my guidelines. Still rough and already over budget. Really because I want to go through the engine and built it right. Especially In the event or possibility this doesn't work out or having a spare motor for a Sandrail or Corolla down the line.

So at a budget of a $1,000, right now with the cost of the car included, I'm already over $1,400. Smack on another $200 for the 14" rims and tires I'm hoping to run(pull-a-part sweet deal, AmericanRacing spider 5's 14"x6" 14lbs each. Also I'm wondering how many hours this is going to take me. I bet the wire harness alone is gonna take at least a full weekend with help if not more.

The plus side. I still have a bunch 4age extra parts to sell including a trani, I'll take the factory rims and Bridgestone Potenza TA's and put them on the daily 83T4WD. I'd say they're worth at least $100. I also have a 3ac Block that needs a run through but only have 175k on it. So maybe $400 or so in extra assets.

The list as follows. I will edit and update it as I go to keep it accurate as possible.

:This swap and parts are referenced for a FWD 4age swap:


85 4WD SR5 Tercel wagon $100

Required items:
4AGE red top fwd clip w/ wiring harnesses $100
RWD 4AGE intake manifold $20
4AGE Gasket set $45 ebay
Water Pump part #16100-19095-83 for rwd conversion MSRP $115
Water Exchange Pipe part # 16278-16050 MSRP $60
Clutch Disc, Pressure Plate, Pilot Bearing ,Release Bearing kit $110
Power steering Banjo bolts EST $30
Longer Belt for alt/waterpump $15
Custom Exhaust system -> Header, cat and muffler?? ???
Exhaust header flanges x3 3/8” $16
Longer or custom throttle cable (5 inches too short) ???
Oil Bung 12mm x 1.25mm $11
Misc. hoses EST $20
Electric inline fuel pump EST $30 USED
Misc Fuel Lines EST $20
Misc vacuum Lines EST $5
Lubes (oil/coolant/PS/gear) EST $40

$637
NON Required items: (but parts I consider worth replacing at this point for reliability)
Larger 4-pass EZ-radiator Aftermarket for the tercel 3x as thick $120
Front Axle Seals X2 (they were leaking) $10
4AGE Timing Belt and Tensioner $26 ebay
Spark Plugs X4 and wires $25 NGK
Thermostat $9
Oil filter $5
Fuel filter $15
Crankcase vent catch tank $12 summit
Battery Relocation Kit $40 summit
Oil pres, oil temp, water temp and voltage gauges $40 summit
All new fuses from tool chest
K&N airfilter $40 summit
Dist. Cap n Rotor $20

$362

Special Required labor:
Having a 3AC flywheel re-indexed to 8 holes. +lightened/balanced EST $80
Custom Exhaust Fabricated. 2 ¼ dia. Cat and high flow exhaust EST $140
Mating the two wire-harness together 12x6packs EST $100
Installing a hood scoop to accommodate intake and head height
Cutting oil baffle plate to clear 3ac Pan
Welding oil return bung on pan
Fab’ing a mount for the power steering pump
Fab’ing a adjusting arm for the Alternator
Fab’ing mount for oil cooler
Moving brake line from master inside away from header
Fab’ing heat shield for fuel lines
Installing an electric fuel pump and line
Fab’ing mount for ecu in glove box
Fab’ing mounts for fuse block and other engine comp.

$320

Issues:
Making exhaust fit around power steering hoses. Swap to banjo fittings.

Other options:

Use a manual short ratio rack


So from what I'm told for other engine swappers, Double the budget. I hope that's not the case.

more pics to follow as well.
Last edited by SynthDesign on Thu Jan 08, 2009 3:48 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: 4AGE swap into 85 4WD

Post by SynthDesign »

I just found out the exhaust flanges got lost somewhere in Chicago during the xmas storms. They got re-routed there twice and I haven't seen them continue anywhere from there. :(
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Re: 4AGE swap into 85 4WD

Post by SynthDesign »

I have not talked to the welder that was going to braze the holes. I decided to try Ballard's Best Welding. I dropped the flywheels off and haven't received a call back for quote. We'll see what happens after the new year.

Header Issues

I've had no luck trying to track down my header flanges. They hit Chicago and never left. I talked to Kirk racing who does a header already for the AE86. They may be able to sell a prefab'ed, non-welded kit to me. Again waiting for a call back. I've been eye balling this ebay item, http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/4AGE-Cor ... ccessories
HD-AE86 header.gif
It's cheap, in the relative context, to a custom header pipe It's 304 so I can have a friend bend,chop or fab it to fit I beleive. Otherwise I can later sell it and probably take a bit of a loss. Considering all options.

I should have pics of the slim fit Power Steering lines by Saturday.
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Re: 4AGE swap into 85 4WD

Post by Petros »

An idea occurred to me about the hood clearance issue. How about lowering the engine mounts by shimming the cross member down?. Shimming the cross member down should give you a bit more hood clearance. You would loose a little center ground clearance, but with taller springs and tires this would be mitigated. If you put taller springs in it anyway, lowering the cross member would help the steering geometry issue some.

Of course you could cut and weld the front engine mounts to lower the engine, but you can only gain perhaps 1/2" inch that way (unless you cut up and reweld the oil pan) since the bottom of the pan would come close to the cross member is you lower the engine mounts.

Perhaps a combination of the two would give enough so you do not have to alter the hood, keeping the sleeper look we want.
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Re: 4AGE swap into 85 4WD

Post by ARCHINSTL »

Petros wrote:An idea occurred to me about the hood clearance issue. How about lowering the engine mounts by shimming the cross member down?. Shimming the cross member down should give you a bit more hood clearance.
Now this is interesting...I lack perhaps 3/16" of hood clearance with the Weber installed (I kept the phenolic plate for its original heating purpose and the PCV connection - I'm currently padding the air cleaner and hood with door rubber stripping, with no dents visible in the hood).
I wonder if the rear trans mount should be lowered by the same amount or if it would matter?
I must admit I am a bit paranoid about anything affecting the trans, what with all of the recent horror stories here... Of course, when I installed all new mounts in '06, that did raise the drivetrain by at least 3/16" compared to the oil-soaked OE sponges.
Hmmm...
Tom M.
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Re: 4AGE swap into 85 4WD

Post by SirNik83 »

As far as your exhaust heat goes, Wrap the header with fiberglass header wrap.

http://store.summitracing.com/partdetai ... toview=sku

This will do 2 things for you. first off it cuts the heat dramatically. My friend wrapped his Civics header with this stuff, and after driving it hard, you could reach in the car and grab the header. second, if you have to cut and weld the header to make it fit, it will cover your welds, keeping a clean look.

I've owned 3 83 SR5 Tercels all with manual steering, and drove an 87 with power steering. Its true that is tough to turn, but even with the MR2 wheels and some wider tires I've gotten use to it. My friend had the power steering go out in his 69 Ranchero back in High school, and he would just make a fist and slap his biceps and say "this is my power steering!" :mrgreen: But seriously, its not that bad, and I like it when driving at speed int he mountains.
My first car was a Tercel, and I'm still driving a Tercel, some people say I need an Intervention.
SynthDesign
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My tercel:: The General, 85 SR5 w/ Sunroof,Olive Drab paint, Black Interior, custom steel bumpers, Barto BC lift, 1.67L BUILT 3AC w/ Weber Carb. 346,000 miles and counting since restoration
Location: Seattle WA
Contact:

Re: 4AGE swap into 85 4WD

Post by SynthDesign »

Petros wrote:An idea occurred to me about the hood clearance issue. How about lowering the engine mounts by shimming the cross member down?. Shimming the cross member down should give you a bit more hood clearance.

Now this is interesting...I lack perhaps 3/16" of hood clearance with the Weber installed (I kept the phenolic plate for its original heating purpose and the PCV connection - I'm currently padding the air cleaner and hood with door rubber stripping, with no dents visible in the hood).
I wonder if the rear trans mount should be lowered by the same amount or if it would matter?
I must admit I am a bit paranoid about anything affecting the trans, what with all of the recent horror stories here... Of course, when I installed all new mounts in '06, that did raise the drivetrain by at least 3/16" compared to the oil-soaked OE sponges.
Hmmm...
Tom M.
I've got a lift kit lightly figured out. It would completely take care of hood clearance issues with the motor swap. I think a 2" front body lift , 2" front spring lift and a 4" spring lift and shock upgrade for the rear would be great. Fab'ing the lift kit shouldn't be too hard but I'm more interested in getting the motor in and running at this point. I've had enough setbacks and problems with weather as it is.

I'll start another post and about it as well and see what the group thinks but here's what I was thinking of basing it around. The original pics are from a 3.5" Taco lift for the rear. Things aren't to scale but the tower inserts and frame inserts kinda give an idea. You'd still need 4 longer bolts and some spacers for the subframe cross member. Also gonna need some longer bolts and spacers for the drive line carrier and trans mounts. Exhaust might be in the way then too. Biggerr Donuts maybe?
Anyway.. :)
lift kit options.jpg
Nik, Thanks for the link on the header wrap. I will add it into the budget as well. GREAT Idea. I hadn't gotten that far yet. See told ya Iwas missing stuff from the budget.

Update:
Water pump, housing and rear exchange are on the way.
Wire harnesses are laid out and ideas are being tossed about wire routing and what not.
The stomach virus I have been suffering since new years from has finally left my system. So back to work!
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