4AGE swap into 85 4WD

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SynthDesign
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4AGE swap into 85 4WD

Post by SynthDesign » Sun Nov 02, 2008 3:54 pm

Alright guys, I've seen post for years about swapping in a 4AGE into a Tercel but no one with a lot of documentation and NO how to help...soooo

F.. it

Here ya go. I'm even gonna take a lot pics to give you guys better reference. I'm also gonna try to do the swap for under $1000.
Pics will be post on a picasa gallery too.
http://picasaweb.google.com/synthdesign ... lverBullet#


Goal. Build a reliable swap cheaply and be plug and play-able. I.E....when I roll it I can just pull the motor and fuse/wire /ecu harness and toss it in the next tercel.
If all goes well I'll drop the coin for a suspension overhaul and 6 point roll bar.. Rally America Entrant maybe

As it Starts...
85 Toyota Tercel SR5( Grey Ext, blue Plaid interior) w/ 234, 378 miles $100.00
88 Toyota Corolla GTS (FWD) Front Clip 205K, est 68k on JDM motor $100.00

It's starting off cheaply and well.
I purchased the Tercel from the second owner who had it factory maintained since they got it. I've never seen so many Toyota part # stickers on a vehicle this old. I swapped in a used radiator and drove it home(A cracked radiator drain plug was their reason for giving up the ghost). I also found out later that it has very low compression in the third cylinder and won't pass emissions either so... time for a new motor.
I've had great luck with my aw11 mr2 and figured the 4age would be a great option for reliability and serviceability. Plus I had a FWD 88 GTS clip lying around just begging to find a home not on my garage floor.

The 4AGE motor is pulled and I've order a CADA??? Head Gasket kit and a timing kit as well. I also pulled all the GTS wiring and components out. Time to start labeling wires and ordering RWD Corolla engine components... water pump housing, exchange tubes, RWD Intake manifold and a few other bits...

The issues:
1) Fly wheel Fitment/ bolt pattern issues. ( also must be mated to a starter)

2) Exhaust...(wrong side of engine compartment).> re-rout it and match to the factory cat.

3) Clutch (cable or hydro engagement), can a cable take the exhaust heat?? probably not.

4) Fuel. Going to fuel injection will require an external fuel pump and secure lines.

5) Engine clearance to hood. maybe a scoop or shaker snorkel..

I'm sure there's gonna be a few more major issues but I'll discuss those when I get to them


We'll see what the machine shop wants to charge to re-index the flywheel or if they think it a good idea. (welding cast Iron)
Other options would be to machining the 4AGE flywheel down to fit. They are both about the same diameter but the 3AC's starter ring gear is recessed. (might be possible)?????

I'll start posting pics tonight after work. I'll talk to the machine shop on Monday or Tuesday.


Alright ,what do you guys think?

Synth
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Petros
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Re: 4AGE swap into 85 4WD

Post by Petros » Mon Nov 03, 2008 12:34 am

I like it, you are a Tercel owner after my own heart. A few suggestions:

I would go to a pull-a-part for the RWD corrola parts you need, a lot cheaper, only a few bucks each likely. Or even get a whole "parts" engine with the parts you need (see below). Try and use as many factory parts as possible, that way you wil not have to make replacements later, and having the list of parts to assemble from the wrecking yard will be less troublesome and less costly than making them. And easier for the rest of us to duplicate.

You might consider either having a whole new flywheel that is lighter made, or getting a crank shaft from a 4AFE with the six bolt pattern and swaping it out with the 8-bolt 4AGE crank. More work but much less cost, and safer, than altering a stock flywheel (use new high strenth flywheel bolts perhaps). If you swap out the cranks, it would give you a chance to check and replace the bearings and front and rear main seals (only aboutr $35 worth of parts too). You have to swap the oil pans anyway, it would not be that much more work to swap out the cranks/bearings/seals. If you get a whole AFE short block it should give you all the low end parts you need. If using the stock 3a flywheel consider lightening it by removing the thick rib on the back of it (the side that faces towards the engine), and you can safely remove about 1/4 inch off the diameter (1/8 off the radious). If you lighten the flywheel make sure you have it rebalanced. A ligher flywheel make it more throttle responsive. Using a 4AFE crank with a lightend 3a flywheel is what I would do, all parts are inexpensive and available from the wrecking yard. Having my 3a flywheel lightend and balanced only cost me about $90 at a local machine shop.

Since you will be using the Tercel 4wd trans and bell housing, the starter and clutch location will be the same as on the 3a engine. They should fit okay but I suggest you make heat sheilds for these parts, the clutch cable can also be futher protected by running it through a length of flexible metal electrical conduit, or something similar. You might also make heat sheilds for the brake master cylinder and the fuel line/filter (if you are not relocating them), and the steering gear box, and the PS lines if so equiped.

I would not attempt to cross under the engine/trans to join up with the old cat/exhaust system, I would relocate it with a whole new larger dia. system under the driver's side. If you are that cheap you can join the old system back near the rear axle after it crosses back to the driver's side. This old system was designed for an engine that puts out a lot less hp, so a whole new larger dia exhaust system would a better match to the AGE and get you both more hp and better economy anyway. I wonder if you could find someones wrecked rice burner in a wrecking yard and pull the exhaust system just for the parts. A muffler shop can then use these parts to build you a better system than the stock tercel exhaust, and it would not cost as much as buying that stuff new. At the very least use the exhaust compnets off the car that had the AGE engine. You might need to match the cat and back pressure for the O2 sensor to work properly. Having an exhaust shop weld you up a new system from your parts is not too costly, perhaps $!50.

On the fuel pump I would see what the donor car is using, if it is an inside the tank unit, see if you can adopt into the tercel tank. We might be lucky and the EFI fuel pump can be directly mounted into the stock Tercel tank. The other thing to consider is adopting the whole fuel tank of the AGE equiped car into the Tercel. Might be worth the effort since it sound like you might already have those parts. Cheaper than an aftermarket fuel pump, and likely the stock pump is not only reliable, but better matched to the factory EFI system. These modern EFI systems are very sensative to fuel pressure.

As far as the hood goes, see if you can lower the engine mounts. If the additional hood clearane is small, it would be much easier to drop the engine a half an inch by altering the front engine mounts (slot the holes, or cut and weld the metal parts of the mount, or make new lightweight aluminum ones as I want to do). It should not hurt anything else, gives the sleeper/stock look and will not get you pulled over by the authorities.

You also might want fit the larger Corolla radiator, although the Tercel cools well, the higher power engine will have a much higher cooling demand. Consider you are almost doubling the power output.

What part of Seattle do you live in, I live just nort of Everett and would love to come see this swap in person. PM me with your location and phone number. The next time I get to Seattle I would like to drop by. I have done a lot of engine mods and worked for several professional race shops and could likely give you some help. This is the same swap I want to accomplish, so would like to assist you in solving any problems for my own benefit, as well as the list members.

Good luck.
'87 Tercel 4wd SR5 (current engine swap project)
'84 Tercel 4wd (daily driver, with on going mods)
'92 Mazda MPV 4wd (wife's daily driver)
'85 Tercel 4wd DLX auto(daughter's daily driver)
'01 Honda Civic (other daughter's daily driver)

SynthDesign
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Re: 4AGE swap into 85 4WD

Post by SynthDesign » Sat Nov 08, 2008 11:47 pm

I'm still waiting to hear back from the Machine shop's welding guy regarding the flywheel, but it sounds like they can be match machine the 4AGE flywheel to the ring gear of the 3AC flywheel :D
The issues:
1) Fly wheel Fitment/ bolt pattern issues. ( also must be mated to a starter)

2) Exhaust...(wrong side of engine compartment).> re-rout it and match to the factory cat.

Looks like it's gonna take a custom header and or moving/fab'ing the steering rack to accommodate the exhaust on the driver side of the car. I looked at it before but not that closely. The Power steering rack and lines are in the way a bit but this can be figured out. The Biggest Problem is the the universal joint is smack in between the engine and the frame rail. Very....... Little room. I can't figure any way to fit the Toyota factory RWD exhaust header in there now that I have specs of one.
I didn't think it was going to be this big of an issue....As NO-ONE has brought this up in any of the discussion posted by people who have supposedly done it already.

Now with a few other Toyota heads working on it we’ll, figure it out.

I'll post more pics on Sunday.
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gatemaster
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Re: 4AGE swap into 85 4WD

Post by gatemaster » Sun Nov 09, 2008 12:52 pm

I am looking forward to seeing your project. This is the same conversion I want to make.
An engines potential to produce power is based
mostly on it's cylinder head design.

SynthDesign
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Re: 4AGE swap into 85 4WD

Post by SynthDesign » Sat Nov 15, 2008 2:24 pm

I finally started pulling the old 3AC and cleaning up the Silver Bullet. I decided to do a head gasket and see if I could have a running motor to pull(spare?) instead of a problem for later. Threw on a rebuilt distributor and it fired right up.

So....Up on jack stands and rollups.

The 4AGE is on the engine stand w/ the pan off. The 3AC pan looks like its gonna fit and clear the baffle plate. The oil pick up strainer is the same on the 4AGE and 3AC so that won't need to be swapped. I going to have to have an oil hose bung welded onto the 3AC oil pan thou.
Hopefully I can get the 4AGE engine in this weekend for the test fit.

Updated pics if wanna see how it's going.
http://picasaweb.google.com/synthdesign ... lverBullet#

More to come...
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gatemaster
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Re: 4AGE swap into 85 4WD

Post by gatemaster » Sat Nov 15, 2008 3:42 pm

thanks for the pics and update, looking forward to the next one.
An engines potential to produce power is based
mostly on it's cylinder head design.

SynthDesign
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My tercel:: The General, 85 SR5 w/ Sunroof,Olive Drab paint, Black Interior, custom steel bumpers, Barto BC lift, 1.67L BUILT 3AC w/ Weber Carb. 346,000 miles and counting since restoration
Location: Seattle WA
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Re: 4AGE swap into 85 4WD

Post by SynthDesign » Sun Nov 30, 2008 9:34 pm

Update:

Things are taking a bit longer as I have been sick.

So far the 3ac motor is out and ready to be compared to the 4age.
The engine compartment and trani are filthy and will need to be scrubbed down too.(all from a leaky dist. o-ring over 2 years)

The good news so far:
I found a CNC machine shop to do the flywheel work and think I found someone to fab the header.
The 4age pan won't fit. The 3ac pan won't fit without altering or removing the oil baffle plate. Not a big problem

Pics and a further update later this week.
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Petros
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Re: 4AGE swap into 85 4WD

Post by Petros » Mon Dec 01, 2008 8:22 pm

any estimate on what the header will cost?
'87 Tercel 4wd SR5 (current engine swap project)
'84 Tercel 4wd (daily driver, with on going mods)
'92 Mazda MPV 4wd (wife's daily driver)
'85 Tercel 4wd DLX auto(daughter's daily driver)
'01 Honda Civic (other daughter's daily driver)

SynthDesign
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Joined: Mon Oct 27, 2008 5:42 pm
My tercel:: The General, 85 SR5 w/ Sunroof,Olive Drab paint, Black Interior, custom steel bumpers, Barto BC lift, 1.67L BUILT 3AC w/ Weber Carb. 346,000 miles and counting since restoration
Location: Seattle WA
Contact:

Re: 4AGE swap into 85 4WD

Post by SynthDesign » Tue Dec 02, 2008 9:44 pm

No idea what the header will cost. I'm hoping less than a $150.


So............

UPDATES:
Lots of cleaning... I hate people who don't replace a $2 o-ring and instead wastes 20 quarts of oil over 2 years.

The 3ac motor is stripped down and the engine mounts and accessories have been transferred over to the 4age. The 4age alternator is forced to be a bit wide because the distributor is in the way. I'll have to get or make an adjuster bracket for it and a larger diameter belt. Not a big issue.
The 4age flywheel and clutch pressure plate will not fit properly into the bell housing(too large of a diameter pressure plate) so the 3ac flywheel and clutch MUST be used.
I'm going to bolt the flywheel up with just the two holes that line up for the test fit for now. It appears that both the 3ac and 4age have the same flywheel offset but I want to check the starter none the less.

I'm still short a few cooling parts but I think the cooling coolant stuff will work fine.

Pics have been update. I should have the 4age in within the next day or two.
http://picasaweb.google.com/synthdesign ... lverBullet#

Hopefully the guy who is going to make the header can come over this weekend and take a look.

If all goes well I'll have to drop a 3ac flywheel off at the machine shop to have them braze in four of the holes then have them drill six more, a bit of weight reduction and balancing. Should be about $75 in labor.

Again, more to come.
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Petros
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Re: 4AGE swap into 85 4WD

Post by Petros » Tue Dec 02, 2008 11:22 pm

If he can make a 4age header that will fit the Tercel for $150, I will take one! Tell him to make two.

Now I just have to find a 4AGE for my Tercel4wd. Where did you get your engine? I would prefer the older '83-'87 since my balanced and lightened 3a flywheel will bolt on to the crank (six bolts) of the older 4age. When you have he flywheel machined for 8 bolts, have them take the extra weight off of the back side, and rebalance it.
'87 Tercel 4wd SR5 (current engine swap project)
'84 Tercel 4wd (daily driver, with on going mods)
'92 Mazda MPV 4wd (wife's daily driver)
'85 Tercel 4wd DLX auto(daughter's daily driver)
'01 Honda Civic (other daughter's daily driver)

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alex16
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Re: 4AGE swap into 85 4WD

Post by alex16 » Wed Dec 03, 2008 12:28 am

I am planing on getting a small port "red top" 4age head and swapping it onto my current 3ac engine. I still have good compression numbers on my rings of course. The main advantage of the 4age is the efi and the higher flowing head. The paradise racing 4ac kit they used to offer did help by adding double valve springs (3ac/4ac valve springs float after 4.5k), shnieder camshaft, weber 32/36 carb. But the kit is almost $700. I feel that you can acquire a red top head for much less and modify a intake manifold to allow the 4ag head to run with a weber carb. I have a tig welder and time to convert the stock efi manifold into a weber friendly manifold. I really do love efi and think its a better choice but I also like to find cheaper alternatives.


The main reason the 4ag>3ac/4ac is because the head flows much more efficient, it is designed to work very well.


My goal is to have a 4AGE small port running on Mega Squirt and running a small amount of boost (3-5lbs) But I am planing on experimenting with a weber small port first.

SynthDesign
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Location: Seattle WA
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Re: 4AGE swap into 85 4WD

Post by SynthDesign » Wed Dec 03, 2008 6:07 pm

If he can make a 4age header that will fit the Tercel for $150, I will take one! Tell him to make two.
The first one is going to be a prototype. I already ordered 3 4age exhaust flanges so I will have an extra one to make another header when the time comes. they should be here in the next day or two.
Now I just have to find a 4AGE for my Tercel4wd. Where did you get your engine? I would prefer the older '83-'87 since my balanced and lightened 3a flywheel will bolt on to the crank (six bolts) of the older 4age. When you have he flywheel machined for 8 bolts, have them take the extra weight off of the back side, and rebalance it.
First off I have yet to see a 6 bolt 4age crank shaft. My 85 mr2 has 8 bolts. MFG Oct 84
http://picasaweb.google.com/synthdesign ... 7803789826 Example of an 85 4AGE flywheel
My old 86 gts (r.i.p.) had 8 bolts. They all had their original motors.
The Toyota 1985 4AGE FSM also show 8 bolts.
Matt Spitzer, The Toyota T-Ten program Instructor for SCC and a Toyota enthusiast for over 20 years says 8 bolts.
I CALL B.S.
I have seen other people mention it but I have NEVER see it myself.
The only difference between the first year runs of the 4age motors were flywheel diameters. All of which are too large w the clutch to fit into the 4WD trani.
The 3ac flywheel re-indexed is the only way to go.

Or show me a non-PS'ed image of one and prove me wrong.
Also 4a-EFI crank will not fit into the 4age block. Different Diameters!
A 4age head will not work properly on a 3ac or 4ac block. The piston heads are not shaped the same >> 8v vs. 16v (missing the other two valve valleys). Your gonna need custom piston for that.


As for where I got mine. I got the clip from a friend who races hornets. He had a few motors and clips lying around and wanted to clean up his shop before he started another round of Kemo. (thx again Crowfoot). I also have another complete engine/trani from a wrecked mr2. Again these are the cheapest way of getting a 4age and all the wiring as many great running cars continue to get totaled by inexperienced drivers each year.

I will have the machine shop match the weight of the 4age flywheel which means removing roughly about 1.2lbs(bathroom scale weight comparison).
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SynthDesign
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Joined: Mon Oct 27, 2008 5:42 pm
My tercel:: The General, 85 SR5 w/ Sunroof,Olive Drab paint, Black Interior, custom steel bumpers, Barto BC lift, 1.67L BUILT 3AC w/ Weber Carb. 346,000 miles and counting since restoration
Location: Seattle WA
Contact:

Re: 4AGE swap into 85 4WD

Post by SynthDesign » Wed Dec 03, 2008 6:43 pm

alex16 wrote:I am planing on getting a small port "red top" 4age head and swapping it onto my current 3ac engine. I still have good compression numbers on my rings of course. The main advantage of the 4age is the efi and the higher flowing head. The paradise racing 4ac kit they used to offer did help by adding double valve springs (3ac/4ac valve springs float after 4.5k), shnieder camshaft, weber 32/36 carb. But the kit is almost $700. I feel that you can acquire a red top head for much less and modify a intake manifold to allow the 4ag head to run with a weber carb. I have a tig welder and time to convert the stock efi manifold into a weber friendly manifold. I really do love efi and think its a better choice but I also like to find cheaper alternatives.


The main reason the 4ag>3ac/4ac is because the head flows much more efficient, it is designed to work very well.


My goal is to have a 4AGE small port running on Mega Squirt and running a small amount of boost (3-5lbs) But I am planing on experimenting with a weber small port first.

UM MM..mmmm..MMM NO

Sorry, that's not making sense to me.

The 3ac and 4ac Heads can be ported alot and breath much more.... .. with much larger intake and exhaust valves, heavier duty springs, a larger internal diameter header, a performance cam and a weber carb. But there goes your MPG. And the HP gain isn't worth the money. 25 HP+ for how much $$$$$
Also have you seen what an intake manifold for a 4age looks like. I don't think that it would be possible to adapt it. Making a mock off of the 4age 20v ITB intake would be much easier or just getting a 20v ITB setup and fabbing that to fit on a small port 4age.

3ac valve springs float at 5,600 rmps on a factory spec and adjusted motor in a T4WD under front wheel driving load producing 58bhp at 5,500rpm in my 2nd dyno run.
The factory Spec is 62bhp at 4,800 rpm or go with Road and Track 62bhp at 5,200rpm http://tercel4wd.com/magazines/r&t/R&T1.jpg
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Petros
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Re: 4AGE swap into 85 4WD

Post by Petros » Thu Dec 04, 2008 11:38 am

"SynthDesign" wrote:

>The first one is going to be a prototype. I already ordered 3 4age exhaust flanges so I will have an extra one to make another header when the time comes. they should be here in the next day or two.[/quote]



Well make an extra for me, I will take it when you are done (let me know, I live only an hour or so North of you). He might do it for less for each if he builds more than one. I know getting it to fit is the critical issue, but you might go to this header web site calculator to optimize the design:

http://www.mkracing.com.ar/archive/esca ... ength.html

"SynthDesign" wrote:
>First off I have yet to see a 6 bolt 4age crank shaft. My 85 mr2 has 8 bolts. MFG Oct 84..
The 3ac flywheel re-indexed is the only way to go.

That could be true, I read off a 4AGE tuning guide web site that the '83-'87 had 6 bolt mains which may not be true, at least on the North American imports. Altering the 3a flywheel is easy enough.


"SynthDesign" wrote:

>I will have the machine shop match the weight of the 4age flywheel which means removing roughly about 1.2lbs(bathroom scale weight comparison).

There is no reason to match the weight, you just want to go as light as possible. If the engine is balanced, the weight only slows down throttle response and adds weight to an already heavy engine (compared to the 3a). The manufacturer adds the weight to reduce the need for a better balanced engine and to smooth out the power pulses felt by the driver. A lighter flywheel not only improves throttle response, reduce weight, but also reduces harmonic vibrations in the crank. All performance turners/racers always go for as light a flywheel as practical. Using the cast iron 3a flywheel there is never a risk of going "too light" (what ever that is), so I would just take as much weight off of it as practical without risking weakening it.
'87 Tercel 4wd SR5 (current engine swap project)
'84 Tercel 4wd (daily driver, with on going mods)
'92 Mazda MPV 4wd (wife's daily driver)
'85 Tercel 4wd DLX auto(daughter's daily driver)
'01 Honda Civic (other daughter's daily driver)

SynthDesign
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Location: Seattle WA
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Re: 4AGE swap into 85 4WD

Post by SynthDesign » Thu Dec 04, 2008 8:56 pm

Alright the engine is in.
No UPS today so still waiting for the exhaust flanges.
Pics to follow later today.
Explanations and budget to follow as well.

Thx Petros for the sweet link. As for Lightening the flywheel, I guess less is better huh. The machinist and my engine helper recommended matching the weight of the 4age flywheel to prevent rev-happy destruction and staying on the same power curve.

Petros, In your opinion, does your lighten flywheel hinder your crawling ability on slick surfaces or places with limited traction? I understand that it revs faster from personal experience, but I wonder if I will lose my ability to make slow very steep climbs and instead spin the tires more often and slide backwards. This was the problem I had with my 85GTS after going to a Findenza lightweight flywheel. I couldn't climb my own wet driveway despite how much clutch or throttle modulation I tried.
Vintage and Classic Toyota; Have you loved your Toyota today?
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86 Toyota Tercel SR5 Canadian Import (Galena)
83 Mazda RX-7 Mariah Widebody
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