Engine Sawp 3ac to 4ac

dug320 · Post by **dug320** » Tue Sep 28, 2004 4:20 pm

I think it is time to do the dirty deed.

I have removed all the minor parts from the 4A-C. There are some differences

- the water pump is the same but the housing on the back of the pump is different.
- the thermostat housing is different.
- pulleys are different (nothing new).
- exhaust connection is set up horizontal and should be diagonal.
- The carb. and vacuum lines work with equipment not on my 3ac.

Based on measurement and research there does no seem to be a problem with swapping parts.

I have not seen any references to the differences in the oil pans. But, I bow to those who have the experience.

Thursday looks to be the day (if it does not rain).

dug320 · Post by **dug320** » Thu Sep 30, 2004 10:17 pm

Well it is the car.

Extract was relatively easy. Insertion was not easy. One thing that worked well was to remove the main pulley before insertion, three inches sure made a difference.

Nice thing about the swap is that everything that came off of the 3ac exactly fit the 4ac. And it went back into the car :blink:

I am probably going to regret not doing the clutch but I can't do everything.

To date here are the differences. I used parts from my 3ac.

- mounting brackets on the 4ac were replaced with 3ac. The cause could have been the engine coming from a front wheel drive.
- emission devices and vacuum lines were not compatible with car and were replaced.
- alternator bracket and mounting plate were replaced. If I were to use the 4ac alternator I would have to change the wire connections.
- metal plate between engine and transmission had to be replaced. Original was too large.
- oil pan was changed. A close look reveals the shallow taper is not shallow enough on the 4ac.
- water pump and housing were replaced as they were not compatible.
- carb used 4ac emission devices and vacuum lines so it was replaced
- exhaust manifold was replaced as the opening was horizontal and not diagonal facing down.
- main pulley used a four ribbed alternator belt and was replaced. I did not feel like changing the pulley on the alternator (three ribbed belt).
- change metal outlet and rubber hose out of the block for heater. 4ac does not have the proper bend and the angles are off.

I had to add

- the housing for the TSRV (mulitple vacuum port thing, too tired to remember).

I did not anticipate

- 3ac used headless bolts and I had to scrounge for some extras to use on the 4ac
- the differences in hardware. The 3ac used washers on everything, the 4ac used very few washers. Everything was too consistant to be laziness.

Not finished hooking up everything; soon will be

dug320 · Post by **dug320** » Fri Oct 01, 2004 11:08 pm

Some more comments

Installing the motor was made MUCH easier when I removed all but one of the stiffening plates. When I left them all on it was too difficult to get everything to fit.

While researching the swap I talked to some local mechanics. One said he had seen a 4ac in a tercel BUT the exhaust did not line-up. NOT TRUE

It was a perfect fit.

Perfect fits also included the timing belt and distributor.

It wasn't a difficult job. The tools used were:
10 mm, 12 mm, 14 mm, long and short sockets I used both 3/8 and 1/2 inch, you could get away with 3/8, and to a lesser entent wrenches
18 mm and 24 mm wrench for egr pipe
19 mm socket for main pully bolt (18 mm on some)
2 extensions
Torque wrench
Electric impact gun

I used an Electric Impact Gun

I got it off ebay for 42 usd (including shipping) and it saved me on those really tough bolts that have rusted (fused) to the block and the main pully bolt. Well worth the purchase.

No rocket science required. Total time to do it by myself was 13.5 hours.

dug320 · Post by **dug320** » Fri Oct 01, 2004 11:14 pm

More

17mm socket was needed to remove bolts used to attach engine to transmission housing

flat head screw driver for clamps.

Cheers

dug320 · Post by **dug320** » Sat Oct 02, 2004 10:31 pm

With regards to the oil pan.

If I did not have power steering, I could have used the oil pan from the 4ac. The 3ac oil pan gave enough clearance for the power steering lines.

Cheers

tercel4wdrules · Post by **tercel4wdrules** » Sun Oct 03, 2004 2:02 am

dug320 wrote: - mounting brackets on the 4ac were replaced with 3ac. The cause could have been the engine coming from a front wheel drive.

The 4A-LC did come in front wheel drive only cars if I'm not mistaken, in Chevy Nova's, AE-82 Corolla sedans 84-87, and the Corolla FX 87-88. You should have the 4A-LC since you said it was from an 85 Corolla FWD.

tercel4wdrules · Post by **tercel4wdrules** » Sun Oct 03, 2004 2:05 am

Oh, and the 4A-C's were included in AE86 RWD Corollas 84-87 and the AE71 Wagon/Sedan/Coupe (83 only). Someone please correct me if I'm wrong.

takza · Post by **takza** » Sun Oct 03, 2004 5:21 am

The manuals I have don't cover these years...is there a page with the HP & torque ratings on this engine?

dug320 · Post by **dug320** » Mon Oct 04, 2004 12:36 am

I guessed on the year and the make. The wrecking yard claimed it was from a Corolla. The mounting brackets matched a front wheel drive. I matched up the emission devices with the corresponding year.

It could have been from a Nova, but the last Nova I owned was a 76 and it had a 350 with dual carbs. I know it would not fit into my Tercel, but could fit into a Vega.

According to Chilton the ratings are

3A-C 60@4800 horsepower with 72@2800 torque, 1452 cc
4A-C 70@4800 horsepower with 85@2800 torque, 1587 cc

tercel4wdrules · Post by **tercel4wdrules** » Wed Oct 06, 2004 9:03 pm

The Chevy Novas with the 4A-LC look sort of similar to the AE-82 Corollas. You will tell if it is a 4A-LC because of the distinctly different timing belt cover. Other than that you can probably not tell it apart from a 4A-C and maybe some of those brackets and mounts. The 4A-LC has 74 HP@5200 RPM and 86lb-ft of torque@2800 RPM and is 1587cc. I really like the 4A-LC. Not that much improvement over the 4A-C but for me it's much more widely available.

GTSSportCoupe · Post by **GTSSportCoupe** » Thu Oct 07, 2004 12:18 pm

Keep in mind the 4ALC has different coolant outlets and piping; also different engine mounts, as well as some other differences (because it is transverse mounted). Many of these components should be transferable from your 3AC though.

dug320 · Post by **dug320** » Thu Oct 07, 2004 5:10 pm

What does the distincively different timing belt cover look like?

I have the one that came off of the engine.

If I had know how much, more, power I would get out of an engine swap; I would have done it thousands of km's ago.

It is nice to accelerate in 5th up a hill on the highway.

:rolleyes:

GTSSportCoupe · Post by **GTSSportCoupe** » Thu Oct 07, 2004 5:51 pm

Any 4AC in a fwd car is a 4ALC. The L just means it is transverse mounted. If you want power you are best off installing a 4age (easiest is from a rwd corolla gts). A 4AC will not give you acceleration going up a hill in 5th. A 4age will barely do that. Anything more powerful (4agze) will be too much for the fragile tercel drivetrain.

You can check this site out for Toyota engine power ratings:

<a href='http://www.geocities.com/MotorCity/Pit/ ... gines.html' target='_blank'>http://www.geocities.com/MotorCity/Pit/ ... es.html</a>

Theoretically any 'A' series engine can be put into a tercel without major fabrication.

tercel4wdrules · Post by **tercel4wdrules** » Thu Oct 07, 2004 7:31 pm

dug320 wrote: What does the distincively different timing belt cover look like?

It is nice to accelerate in 5th up a hill on the highway.

If you have the Chiltons manual that covers the Corolla, Starlet, Tercel, etc. that covers from model years late 70's to 1987 then the picture of the different timing belt cover is in that book. I saw it somewhere like in the beginning of the book or so. I am certain that you will find it, just look under timing belt replacement for the 'A' series engines and it will be separate from the 3A-C and 4A-C procedure. One more question, is the 12 horsepower difference really that noticeable when you nail it?

Fingers · Post by **Fingers** » Thu Oct 07, 2004 11:15 pm

Well the 12 hp may help up hills, but in my case it didn't seem too much quicker overall.

Now swap in a turbo alltrac drivetrain, that's power.....