No Crank at Ignition Lock but Runs With a Push Start

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Abletobecain
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No Crank at Ignition Lock but Runs With a Push Start

Post by Abletobecain »

Hello all,

Well my roommate and I finished the head gasket on one of my T4s this weekend and he's now buying the car from me. So it's on to another project car that I have sitting. I haven't really done anything with it since I bought it besides strip the interior for a deep cleaning. The car won't crank from the ignition lock but if you push start it, it runs fine. I'm just searching for ideas of where to start looking into the problem. The previous owner said he replaced the voltage regulator. I also pulled the starter on it which fell apart as I did so and I swapped it with one from my parts car...still unsure if that one is good or not. Where else should I start looking? ICM? Clutch safety switch? Oh...and there's no key for the car so the guts of the ignition lock are pulled apart from the lock cylinder and we're cranking if with a screwdriver. Any ideas of where to start looking would be appreciated.
1977 BMW R100S 1WD ("Brunhilda"/Summer Fun)
1983 DLX Tercel Wagon 4WD ("Charlie"/Daily Driver)
1987 SR5 Tercel Wagon 4WD ("Sprocket"/Off-road-Camping)
1985 SR5 Tercel Wagon 4WD ("Lucky"/Project)
1983 SR5 Tercel Wagon 4WD ("Cadaver"/Parts Car)
1985 Ford F250 6.9IDI ("Franklin"/Hauler)
1987 SR5 Tercel Wagon 4WD ("Ravensburger"/in a million pieces)
2006 BMW 530XI Wagon ("Inga"/Roadtripper)
1969 Mercury Montego MX Convertible ("Big Ed"/My Dad's Old Car)
1983 SR5 Tercel Wagon 4WD ("Al"/for sale soon)
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Petros
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Re: No Crank at Ignition Lock but Runs With a Push Start

Post by Petros »

If it runs normal with a push start than it is isolated to the starter system, not the ignition system, carb or anything else.

there are only three componets to the starter system: the ignision switch, the starter relay, and teh stater itself (that also contains the solonoid.

There starter relay is under the dash on the passenger side kick panel (see the FSM for location), check to see if it is good.

you can jump the starter directly to test it by applying 12v to the small wire contact that goes to the starter solenoid.

if the relay is good, it might be the contact behind the ignition key on the steering column. this is less common, but on cars this old, any contact or moving part is suspect until proven good. you can test the contact by by passing the actual switch and apply 12 volts directly to the start wire on the back of the ignition switch.

good luck.
'87 Tercel 4wd SR5 (current engine swap project)
'84 Tercel 4wd (daily driver, with on going mods)
'92 Mazda MPV 4wd (wife's daily driver)
'85 Tercel 4wd DLX auto(daughter's daily driver)
'01 Honda Civic (other daughter's daily driver)
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Abletobecain
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Re: No Crank at Ignition Lock but Runs With a Push Start

Post by Abletobecain »

This is just the kind of intel I need. Thanks Petros!!
1977 BMW R100S 1WD ("Brunhilda"/Summer Fun)
1983 DLX Tercel Wagon 4WD ("Charlie"/Daily Driver)
1987 SR5 Tercel Wagon 4WD ("Sprocket"/Off-road-Camping)
1985 SR5 Tercel Wagon 4WD ("Lucky"/Project)
1983 SR5 Tercel Wagon 4WD ("Cadaver"/Parts Car)
1985 Ford F250 6.9IDI ("Franklin"/Hauler)
1987 SR5 Tercel Wagon 4WD ("Ravensburger"/in a million pieces)
2006 BMW 530XI Wagon ("Inga"/Roadtripper)
1969 Mercury Montego MX Convertible ("Big Ed"/My Dad's Old Car)
1983 SR5 Tercel Wagon 4WD ("Al"/for sale soon)
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Abletobecain
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Re: No Crank at Ignition Lock but Runs With a Push Start

Post by Abletobecain »

So I pulled the starter solenoid and it fell apart. Swapped it and now I'm trying to test the starter. Do I ground to the case and put the positive on the power bolt then arc the blade where the plug goes to the power bolt?
1977 BMW R100S 1WD ("Brunhilda"/Summer Fun)
1983 DLX Tercel Wagon 4WD ("Charlie"/Daily Driver)
1987 SR5 Tercel Wagon 4WD ("Sprocket"/Off-road-Camping)
1985 SR5 Tercel Wagon 4WD ("Lucky"/Project)
1983 SR5 Tercel Wagon 4WD ("Cadaver"/Parts Car)
1985 Ford F250 6.9IDI ("Franklin"/Hauler)
1987 SR5 Tercel Wagon 4WD ("Ravensburger"/in a million pieces)
2006 BMW 530XI Wagon ("Inga"/Roadtripper)
1969 Mercury Montego MX Convertible ("Big Ed"/My Dad's Old Car)
1983 SR5 Tercel Wagon 4WD ("Al"/for sale soon)
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Abletobecain
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Re: No Crank at Ignition Lock but Runs With a Push Start

Post by Abletobecain »

I got the starter tested at O'reileys and it passed. Put it back in and tried to start the car...little click in the relay I think but nothing else. I can't find the starter relay in the FSM...can anyone show me which one it is? There's a weird buzzing coming from the drivers inside fuse panel when the headlight switch is flipped but the headlights don't turn on. Sometimes the "door ajar" light would be on and sometimes it wouldn't...it would go out when I switched the headlights on. I replaced the ignition switch and still nothing. Also, I should mention that there's no key for this car so the ignition switch is disconnected from the back of the ignition lock and I've been trying to start it with a screw driver. Would this cause it to not start? If I want to replace the ignition lock, do I need to swap the whole steering column?
1977 BMW R100S 1WD ("Brunhilda"/Summer Fun)
1983 DLX Tercel Wagon 4WD ("Charlie"/Daily Driver)
1987 SR5 Tercel Wagon 4WD ("Sprocket"/Off-road-Camping)
1985 SR5 Tercel Wagon 4WD ("Lucky"/Project)
1983 SR5 Tercel Wagon 4WD ("Cadaver"/Parts Car)
1985 Ford F250 6.9IDI ("Franklin"/Hauler)
1987 SR5 Tercel Wagon 4WD ("Ravensburger"/in a million pieces)
2006 BMW 530XI Wagon ("Inga"/Roadtripper)
1969 Mercury Montego MX Convertible ("Big Ed"/My Dad's Old Car)
1983 SR5 Tercel Wagon 4WD ("Al"/for sale soon)
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marlinh
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Re: No Crank at Ignition Lock but Runs With a Push Start

Post by marlinh »

Sounds like you have a bad battery or connections.
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Petros
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Re: No Crank at Ignition Lock but Runs With a Push Start

Post by Petros »

make sure the battery terminals are clean, and the cables are firmly attached to the terminal clamps. one of the those battery terminal post cleaner wire brushes are really heady for quickly getting the oxide layer off both the battery terminal and the inside of the clamps. but a small wire brush works well.

check both ends of the battery cable connection and the grounding cables while you are at it. if you find corrosion, take it apart and clean it well. I like to add some corrosion inhibiting compound like CRC, LPS or Corrosion-X, etc to all connectors.
'87 Tercel 4wd SR5 (current engine swap project)
'84 Tercel 4wd (daily driver, with on going mods)
'92 Mazda MPV 4wd (wife's daily driver)
'85 Tercel 4wd DLX auto(daughter's daily driver)
'01 Honda Civic (other daughter's daily driver)
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Abletobecain
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Re: No Crank at Ignition Lock but Runs With a Push Start

Post by Abletobecain »

So I disassembled the wiring harness and cleaned it and all the ground bolts really well. Still nothing so I got my buddy to tap on the starter while I cranked it with the screwdriver and she came to life. For a bit...then the timing belt snapped. I plan on replacing the water pump, thermostat, and all of the engine seals I can reach while I'm doing the timing belt...oh and valve cover gasket too. Is there anything else I should plan on while I'm at it? I should mention that I'm planning to sell this car but I still want it to be done right. Oh, and it's California emissions. Does it use the same water pump? Rockauto has several listed as excluding Cal emissions models but none that say that they're for it.
1977 BMW R100S 1WD ("Brunhilda"/Summer Fun)
1983 DLX Tercel Wagon 4WD ("Charlie"/Daily Driver)
1987 SR5 Tercel Wagon 4WD ("Sprocket"/Off-road-Camping)
1985 SR5 Tercel Wagon 4WD ("Lucky"/Project)
1983 SR5 Tercel Wagon 4WD ("Cadaver"/Parts Car)
1985 Ford F250 6.9IDI ("Franklin"/Hauler)
1987 SR5 Tercel Wagon 4WD ("Ravensburger"/in a million pieces)
2006 BMW 530XI Wagon ("Inga"/Roadtripper)
1969 Mercury Montego MX Convertible ("Big Ed"/My Dad's Old Car)
1983 SR5 Tercel Wagon 4WD ("Al"/for sale soon)
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Petros
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Re: No Crank at Ignition Lock but Runs With a Push Start

Post by Petros »

front main seal should be replaced while you are at it. water pump for your car is the same for Calif as the rest of the world.

funny the timing belt should break right when you are trying to sort out the starter. was it falling apart? usually it will start cracking, loosing bits of rubber and the inner fibers become frayed along the edges long before it will break.
'87 Tercel 4wd SR5 (current engine swap project)
'84 Tercel 4wd (daily driver, with on going mods)
'92 Mazda MPV 4wd (wife's daily driver)
'85 Tercel 4wd DLX auto(daughter's daily driver)
'01 Honda Civic (other daughter's daily driver)
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Abletobecain
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Re: No Crank at Ignition Lock but Runs With a Push Start

Post by Abletobecain »

I thought the water pump should be the same too...weird that Rockauto has some listed as excluding California emissions.

The belt looks fine other than the snap. I've never dealt with a broken timing belt before so I'm curious to find out why it snapped when I get it all opened up. Maybe a seized tensioner?

Image
1977 BMW R100S 1WD ("Brunhilda"/Summer Fun)
1983 DLX Tercel Wagon 4WD ("Charlie"/Daily Driver)
1987 SR5 Tercel Wagon 4WD ("Sprocket"/Off-road-Camping)
1985 SR5 Tercel Wagon 4WD ("Lucky"/Project)
1983 SR5 Tercel Wagon 4WD ("Cadaver"/Parts Car)
1985 Ford F250 6.9IDI ("Franklin"/Hauler)
1987 SR5 Tercel Wagon 4WD ("Ravensburger"/in a million pieces)
2006 BMW 530XI Wagon ("Inga"/Roadtripper)
1969 Mercury Montego MX Convertible ("Big Ed"/My Dad's Old Car)
1983 SR5 Tercel Wagon 4WD ("Al"/for sale soon)
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Petros
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Re: No Crank at Ignition Lock but Runs With a Push Start

Post by Petros »

how old is it? sometimes if a car (or engine) sat around for years, the belt decomposes internally. they have both a miles life limit, and a time/age limit when they recommend changes. I have never had a belt brake on a Tercel, but I get mine apart (for different reasons) that I typically change it if it starts to look old (fine cracks, frayed edges, etc.).

I have bought several T4wd that had broken belts cheap, someone told them the engine had to be replaced and they did not want to mess with it. one of the belts had half its teeth missing and a lot of exposed inner cord showing, that is how bad it got before it finally gave up.
'87 Tercel 4wd SR5 (current engine swap project)
'84 Tercel 4wd (daily driver, with on going mods)
'92 Mazda MPV 4wd (wife's daily driver)
'85 Tercel 4wd DLX auto(daughter's daily driver)
'01 Honda Civic (other daughter's daily driver)
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Abletobecain
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Joined: Sun Dec 09, 2018 9:18 am
My tercel:: 1983 4WD DLX, 1986 4WD SR5, 1985 4WD SR5, 1983 4WD SR5
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Re: No Crank at Ignition Lock but Runs With a Push Start

Post by Abletobecain »

No idea how old it is. The sticker on the cover says it was changed 120k ago but there was something written in sharpie on the radiator support bar across the front that says something about the timing belt...it's worn off now. On another note, I pulled the passenger lock cylinder and got two keys made for $20! Pretty happy about that.
1977 BMW R100S 1WD ("Brunhilda"/Summer Fun)
1983 DLX Tercel Wagon 4WD ("Charlie"/Daily Driver)
1987 SR5 Tercel Wagon 4WD ("Sprocket"/Off-road-Camping)
1985 SR5 Tercel Wagon 4WD ("Lucky"/Project)
1983 SR5 Tercel Wagon 4WD ("Cadaver"/Parts Car)
1985 Ford F250 6.9IDI ("Franklin"/Hauler)
1987 SR5 Tercel Wagon 4WD ("Ravensburger"/in a million pieces)
2006 BMW 530XI Wagon ("Inga"/Roadtripper)
1969 Mercury Montego MX Convertible ("Big Ed"/My Dad's Old Car)
1983 SR5 Tercel Wagon 4WD ("Al"/for sale soon)
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Abletobecain
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Posts: 415
Joined: Sun Dec 09, 2018 9:18 am
My tercel:: 1983 4WD DLX, 1986 4WD SR5, 1985 4WD SR5, 1983 4WD SR5
Location: Kitsap County
Contact:

Re: No Crank at Ignition Lock but Runs With a Push Start

Post by Abletobecain »

So I'm getting ready to do the timing belt on this thing and I noticed it was low on oil. I filled it up and saw it dripping out of the drain plug. The previous owner cut a piece of cardboard for the drain plug gasket. While I was under there I turned the crank pulley by hand pretty easily...the belt is still connected to the water pump pulley but there's no timing belt on it at all. I'm wondering if I should be able to turn it by hand, and if not, what could be broken that's letting me do so?
1977 BMW R100S 1WD ("Brunhilda"/Summer Fun)
1983 DLX Tercel Wagon 4WD ("Charlie"/Daily Driver)
1987 SR5 Tercel Wagon 4WD ("Sprocket"/Off-road-Camping)
1985 SR5 Tercel Wagon 4WD ("Lucky"/Project)
1983 SR5 Tercel Wagon 4WD ("Cadaver"/Parts Car)
1985 Ford F250 6.9IDI ("Franklin"/Hauler)
1987 SR5 Tercel Wagon 4WD ("Ravensburger"/in a million pieces)
2006 BMW 530XI Wagon ("Inga"/Roadtripper)
1969 Mercury Montego MX Convertible ("Big Ed"/My Dad's Old Car)
1983 SR5 Tercel Wagon 4WD ("Al"/for sale soon)
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SirFoxx
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Re: No Crank at Ignition Lock but Runs With a Push Start

Post by SirFoxx »

Abletobecain wrote: Thu Oct 24, 2019 9:18 pm So I'm getting ready to do the timing belt on this thing and I noticed it was low on oil. I filled it up and saw it dripping out of the drain plug. The previous owner cut a piece of cardboard for the drain plug gasket. While I was under there I turned the crank pulley by hand pretty easily...the belt is still connected to the water pump pulley but there's no timing belt on it at all. I'm wondering if I should be able to turn it by hand, and if not, what could be broken that's letting me do so?
I'm also having this issue. At least on my pan, there is a small divet at the bottom of the drain plug hole that looks like it helps aid with draining. I've bought a replacement oem plug and plug "gasket"? (hard plastic washer) and it still had a slow drip after tightening the snot out of the plug. I resorted to using aviation gasket sealant to seal the washer after tightening the bolt, which seemed to help after the goo set after a few days.

As for easily turning the motor, with a broken timing belt, some of your valves may be stuck open due to the camshaft not turning with the motor.
1988 DLX 4wd Tercel Wagon w/ weber (RIP)
1985 4wd Tercel SR5 (RIP)
1986 Base 2dr Hatch (RIP / PARTS)
1986 DLX 4wd Tercel Wagon with ???
1985 DLX 2dr Tercel Hatch w/manual swap
1981 2dr Toyota Tercel w/7age (RIP)
1981 3dr hatch Toyota Tercel w/Turbo 4AGE
1981 3dr hatch Toyota Tercel SR-5
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Petros
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Re: No Crank at Ignition Lock but Runs With a Push Start

Post by Petros »

yes, with no timing belt the crank will turn easily. with no compression, only the piston rings in the bores offer any resistance, and that is not much.
'87 Tercel 4wd SR5 (current engine swap project)
'84 Tercel 4wd (daily driver, with on going mods)
'92 Mazda MPV 4wd (wife's daily driver)
'85 Tercel 4wd DLX auto(daughter's daily driver)
'01 Honda Civic (other daughter's daily driver)
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