slamming out of first gear on take off from a stop

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Petros
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Re: slamming out of first gear on take off from a stop

Post by Petros » Tue Feb 06, 2018 10:16 pm

if the main shaft bearings are worn and sloppy, it allows the gear cluster to move forward and aft with power on and off, and it causes it to kick out of gear. Usually this means there is a lot of play in bearings, and it could suddenly fail and bundle up the whole gear box.

I do not know of any other cause, so likely it is these bearings. It can be saved now by pulling it and replacing the main shaft bearings, which should still be available.

for what it is worth, you might try draining the gear oil, and do a 50/50 AFT/gear oil flush (drive it for a day and allow it to get warm at highway speeds), than drain it out. if you get a lot of metal shavings, the bearings are giving up. Though one forum member found this kind of flush cleaned out the sludge and the problem went away after the flush.

good luck
'87 Tercel 4wd SR5 (current engine swap project)
'84 Tercel 4wd (daily driver, with on going mods)
'92 Mazda MPV 4wd (wife's daily driver)
'85 Tercel 4wd DLX auto(daughter's daily driver)
'01 Honda Civic (other daughter's daily driver)

xirdneh
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Re: slamming out of first gear on take off from a stop

Post by xirdneh » Wed Feb 07, 2018 12:24 am

front output shaft bearing is most likely the cause
also could be the synchro meshing teeth on first gear are worn badly
or could one of the three synchro detents has fallen out

i know someone who has had that problem for half a year or more
if its not the bearing the tranny could hold up for a long time
but if it is the bearing the tranny will have some major problems when it finally self destructs

only way to find out is to take it apart
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Love those Tercell 4x4 wagons but they sure suffer from road noise.

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garyfish
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Re: slamming out of first gear on take off from a stop

Post by garyfish » Wed Feb 07, 2018 2:10 am

I have the same issue. From a dead stop, my '87 T4WD slams out of first gear most of the time -- doesn't seem to matter if it's in FWD or 4WD -- and it took me a while to figure out how best to live with it.

When I recently replaced the clutch in my '87, I installed a supposedly "good" low-mileage tranny in place of the existing gearbox which was "crunchy" going into and out of 3rd gear... imagine my dismay when I discovered that I would have been better off with my old transmission.

It was so much work for me to install the replacement tranny that I really didn't want to undo all that work right away... so here's how I'm dealing with the first-gear problem: from a dead stop, if I'm on a downhill or on nearly level surfaces, I will often start out in 2nd gear. If I'm on dirt or gravel instead of pavement, I sometimes put it in 4WD and start out in Extra Low, then in rapid succession I take it out of EL, move the selector to FWD, and then shift into 2nd while still rolling forward.

I soon discovered that if I shift into first while the wagon is still moving forward, I can come to a complete stop and then start out in first without it slamming out of gear, whereas if I shift it into first after coming to a stop, it slams out. There is a very small, almost undetectible, increase in the throw and feel of the shift lever when going into first while in forward motion, I'd say maybe a sixteenth of an inch with an almost imperceptible click at the very end of the throw.

Any ideas what's going on here? I haven't tried the 50-50 ATF-gear oil flush yet, but that's the next step when I get a window of time and weather to do it.
1985 Tercel SR5 4WD wagon, 300K
1987 Tercel DLX 4WD wagon, 6-speed manual, 251K -- got this one running Jan. 2015 (had been sitting for 2 years)

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garyfish
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Re: slamming out of first gear on take off from a stop

Post by garyfish » Wed Feb 07, 2018 5:21 pm

Abra, it sounds like we have very similar issues...

... although I haven't noticed the thing you mentioned about getting stuck in 3rd gear.

Please post updates here after you do the ATF flush.
1985 Tercel SR5 4WD wagon, 300K
1987 Tercel DLX 4WD wagon, 6-speed manual, 251K -- got this one running Jan. 2015 (had been sitting for 2 years)

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Petros
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Re: slamming out of first gear on take off from a stop

Post by Petros » Wed Feb 07, 2018 6:48 pm

if the problem is the gear shift detent is gummed up, the flush should clean it up (ATF has a very high detergent value). If the main shaft front bearing is worn, sloppy and loose, than likely the flush will not help. if the bearing is worn out, there should be metal particles in the gear oil, if the detent is just stuck, not likely to have metal shavings in the oil.

try this: down shift into first gear, push it all the way in, and than try accelerating lightly, than letting off the gas. Try accelerating again but harder. If it pops out, likely it is the bearing is worn out, and it should not be driven much until it can be fixed. It it stays in gear, it might just be the detent is stuck (it is a ball bearing in a port with a strong spring behind it, acts like a plunger and engages a notch on the shift shaft). A good ATF, or even Seafoam, flush should ungum it.
'87 Tercel 4wd SR5 (current engine swap project)
'84 Tercel 4wd (daily driver, with on going mods)
'92 Mazda MPV 4wd (wife's daily driver)
'85 Tercel 4wd DLX auto(daughter's daily driver)
'01 Honda Civic (other daughter's daily driver)

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garyfish
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Re: slamming out of first gear on take off from a stop

Post by garyfish » Wed Feb 07, 2018 7:56 pm

My understanding is that you should drive for about 50 miles w/ the 50-50 ATF-gear oil mix, then drain it while the mix is still warm. Petros, is that about right?

After being solidly in gear, my tranny has not jumped out of first or 2nd either on hard acceleration or deceleration.

It has popped out of 4th a couple times after hitting a particularly bad pothole, which are a fact of life here in rural NorCal.
1985 Tercel SR5 4WD wagon, 300K
1987 Tercel DLX 4WD wagon, 6-speed manual, 251K -- got this one running Jan. 2015 (had been sitting for 2 years)

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Re: slamming out of first gear on take off from a stop

Post by splatterdog » Thu Feb 08, 2018 9:53 am

One slight possibility could be worn out shifter bushings preventing full engagement. Probably deeper though.

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Petros
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Re: slamming out of first gear on take off from a stop

Post by Petros » Thu Feb 08, 2018 4:42 pm

A day's worth of driving should be all you need. let the 50/50 ATF/gear oil mix soak overnight after a short drive around the block, to soften any sludge. Than drive it for one day, go easy on it, 50 miles is good, but get it up to freeway speeds for about 30 min. And than drain it all while it is still warm. If possible, drain it into a fairly clean pan so you can carefully inspect the flush oil for metal particles, contamination, etc. Use a strong light and look at the used oil carefully, it is easy to miss.

I have seen where a badly botched shift, where someone tried to slam it into gear, broke a pace of the syncro off. I got the trans from the wrecking yard, but knew it had a problem because the piece of the syncro could be seen in the drain of the trans. Xirdneh rebuilt it for me, but found it in good shape, other than the damaged syncro. the syncro was still in place, with one piece broken off the edge. It appears that they kept driving it, who knows if there was any ill effects, possibly that gear was slower to engage. but clearly this is what happens when you try and fight the shift lever into gear.

No reason to use force when shifting, it will not go into gear faster, it only risks doing damage.
'87 Tercel 4wd SR5 (current engine swap project)
'84 Tercel 4wd (daily driver, with on going mods)
'92 Mazda MPV 4wd (wife's daily driver)
'85 Tercel 4wd DLX auto(daughter's daily driver)
'01 Honda Civic (other daughter's daily driver)

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SirFoxx
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Re: slamming out of first gear on take off from a stop

Post by SirFoxx » Fri Feb 09, 2018 4:08 pm

Not gonna lie, I also have a similar issue. I need to try the atf flush. With mine, instead of popping out of first, I cannot get it into first if it's going faster than 5mph. And third gear is a bit crunchy. What causes third to crunch?
1988 DLX Tercel Wagon w/ weber (RIP)
1985 4wd Tercel SR5 (RIP)
1981 Toyota Tercel

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Petros
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Re: slamming out of first gear on take off from a stop

Post by Petros » Fri Feb 09, 2018 8:09 pm

SirFoxx,

after the flush, put in a 50/50 mix of MTF+gear oil (MTF is synthetic gear lube), and there is a graphite additive for manual trans that is supposed to improve shifts, I got mine from Canada. not sure I have seen it in the states, but it was like $7. after the flush, and that treatment, that might help your shifting.

do not use more than 50 percent synthetic gear oil, it will leak out of all of the seals, and make shifting more difficult, it is too slippery to make our old style syncros work well, and it will be like the syncro is completely gone.
'87 Tercel 4wd SR5 (current engine swap project)
'84 Tercel 4wd (daily driver, with on going mods)
'92 Mazda MPV 4wd (wife's daily driver)
'85 Tercel 4wd DLX auto(daughter's daily driver)
'01 Honda Civic (other daughter's daily driver)

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Petros
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Re: slamming out of first gear on take off from a stop

Post by Petros » Sun Feb 11, 2018 7:00 pm

looks like a piece of the syncro, or perhaps a gear tooth. if the gear clusters are good, it can be saved if you can locate replacment syncros, seals and bearings are all available.
'87 Tercel 4wd SR5 (current engine swap project)
'84 Tercel 4wd (daily driver, with on going mods)
'92 Mazda MPV 4wd (wife's daily driver)
'85 Tercel 4wd DLX auto(daughter's daily driver)
'01 Honda Civic (other daughter's daily driver)

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garyfish
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Re: slamming out of first gear on take off from a stop

Post by garyfish » Mon Feb 12, 2018 10:47 pm

BK224WS is the part # for the bearing/seal kit, with all 5 synchronizer rings, which fits all 1983-88 4WD Tercel wagons with the Z50F 6-speed manual transmission

I could only find one online outlet for kit BK224WS... at O'Reilly Auto for $973.99
https://www.oreillyauto.com/detail/powe ... ws/4673763


there are a couple past threads on this topic which might be of interest here:
viewtopic.php?f=3&t=11881
viewtopic.php?t=9942

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

EDIT:

it's possible that the BK224WS tranny rebuild kit could also be available from the following online source (for $643.98)... scroll almost all the way to the bottom of the page, or do a "find" for Z50F:
http://www.drivetrain.com/parts_catalog ... l_kit.html
1985 Tercel SR5 4WD wagon, 300K
1987 Tercel DLX 4WD wagon, 6-speed manual, 251K -- got this one running Jan. 2015 (had been sitting for 2 years)

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Petros
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Re: slamming out of first gear on take off from a stop

Post by Petros » Tue Feb 13, 2018 12:45 am

there is a thead on this topic, list all known kits, most are now NLA (out of production), but most of the separate parts are available, excpt gasketts. best is to just use Permatex instead of gaskets anyway, all new cars do that, and all trans shops now only use Permatex form-a-gasket or similar.

in the thread, I think it is over in the Parts forum, it lists the bearing part numbers, seal part numbers, and where to buy them. sometimes someone clean out a ware house and a trans kit shows up, or several sets of new sycros pops up in an auto parts suppliers website. I think I bought the last known complete TERcel4wd trans rebuild kit in north america in 2014, for too much.

that one listed above, if they actually have it (many list it but when you order it you get "NLA"), is way too much. $900? the parts are not worth that much. you can buy all the parts separately for less, except gaskets, and than you can still find syncros. not any more, unless you get lucky.

Forum member Xirdneh seems to know more about how to find syncros, and where seals and bearings can be bought.
'87 Tercel 4wd SR5 (current engine swap project)
'84 Tercel 4wd (daily driver, with on going mods)
'92 Mazda MPV 4wd (wife's daily driver)
'85 Tercel 4wd DLX auto(daughter's daily driver)
'01 Honda Civic (other daughter's daily driver)

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Petros
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Re: slamming out of first gear on take off from a stop

Post by Petros » Tue Feb 13, 2018 5:49 pm

that kit price is a rip off: it has 5 syncros, which used to have dealer price of about $25 each, and it shows 5 or 6 bearings, about $20-30 each, and a bunch of seals that are all less than $10 ea, and the gaskets (a tube of permatex is under $10). Grand total: less than $300. I paid $500, about 5 years ago, and realized I got ripped off. buy the parts, skip the kit. they likely do not have it anyway, they just sown it on the web site.

if you really need syncos they do show up occasionally on line, or if you inquire in on-line parts networks, sometimes less than the dealer price.

Actually however, after your flush, it appears it was just the detent all gummed up since it has not popped out since. if you ever pull the trans for other service (clutch, pilot bearing, etc) might be worth considering replacing the five seals...but you can do all four external seals without pulling the trans at all (CV axles, 4wd selector, rear output shaft), all are available and not costly. these seals are common to a lot of different vehicles so they are standard basic parts, and still available. The input shaft seals rarely fails, only if you get the bearing failing behind the input shaft (which means you have to pull it anyway).

If you have any leaky seals by all means replace them ASAP, you do not want to risk running low on lube and than trashing the trans, than it gets real expensive.
'87 Tercel 4wd SR5 (current engine swap project)
'84 Tercel 4wd (daily driver, with on going mods)
'92 Mazda MPV 4wd (wife's daily driver)
'85 Tercel 4wd DLX auto(daughter's daily driver)
'01 Honda Civic (other daughter's daily driver)

xirdneh
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My tercel:: 87 tercel 4x4 wagon w/reringed engine, 83 tercel 4x4 wagon w/salvaged engine and 4.1 Diff's
Location: seabeck, washington, USA

Re: slamming out of first gear on take off from a stop

Post by xirdneh » Fri Feb 16, 2018 12:00 am

grinding the end of the socket flat will give more grip for those thin head plugs
where is the engine leaking? usually its the front crank seal. its not too bad of a job to replace
other usual leaky things are valve cover gasket and/or its halfmoon plug at back of head and distributor "O" ring, both are easy to replace
rear main crank seal can leak but i have never worked on a tercel with that problem

are you sure its engine leak and not tranny axle seal leak
Love those Tercell 4x4 wagons but they sure suffer from road noise.

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