Car will not shut off...HELP!!!

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SmilingVoyeur
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My tercel:: 1983 4WD Tercel Delux Wagon

Car will not shut off...HELP!!!

Post by SmilingVoyeur »

Have 4WD Delux Tercel Wagon. When warm, car will not shut off. Currently have had to stall out engine and open hood having installed a shut off lever on the battery to shut off the electricity...really not fun when dressed up! Observed that IG Main fuse when removed completely, allows car to start with out it (?) and to shut off. How can that be? What gives? Greatly appreciate your info. [Have already replaced ignition switch.]
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Petros
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My tercel:: '84 Tercel4wd w/extensive mods
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Re: Car will not shut off...HELP!!!

Post by Petros »

Hi, welcome to the forum.

need more information. how many miles on it? any recent work? where do you live? when you say it will not shut off, do you mean it keeps idling like normal after you return the key to "off"? or does it clunk and chatter as if it is dieseling?

I can not imagine how it could keep running, the ignition switch is pretty reliable. A better place to cut off power would be to install a switch on the power wire to the distributor, it is in the green connector going to the distributor (check the wire diagram for the right color wire, one is for the tachometer that you do not have on the DLX, the other is the power supply to the distributor). Run two wires into the car and put a toggle switch on it, it will also serve as an anti-theft kill switch (several forum members, including me, have had their T4wd stolen).

if it is dieseling, the fuel cut off solenoid on the carburetor is not working. there is a simple test, review the service manual for details (available for free down load from this site). You simply apply 12 volts to the connector and listen for a "click". If it does not work it needs to be replaced. that is a fairly simple replacement, once you know if that is the problem.
'87 Tercel 4wd SR5 (current engine swap project)
'84 Tercel 4wd (daily driver, with on going mods)
'92 Mazda MPV 4wd (wife's daily driver)
'85 Tercel 4wd DLX auto(daughter's daily driver)
'01 Honda Civic (other daughter's daily driver)
SmilingVoyeur
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My tercel:: 1983 4WD Tercel Delux Wagon

Re: Car will not shut off...HELP!!!

Post by SmilingVoyeur »

I'm in Santa Fe. My wagon has a rebuilt engine in it which was done in 2015 with 70,000 on the new engine. (Previous one melted after the thermostat failed.) The not shutting off is not dieseling and does not clunk or clatter...it's not shutting off at all, engine & all electricity. Did have a kill switch installed several years ago with a hidden switch inside the car but relented and took it off when the car started not shutting down. Put in a new ignition switch & key assembly as well. Have a mechanic who has been stymied with this oddity whom I will give your printed reply which is most gracious. Am so grateful to have found your world of 4wd Tercelites. My car is beautiful and am regularly stopped by persons who admire it. I just had a head gasket repair but that is not related. The issue has been going on for a long time.
Also am over-heating, replaced thermostat, sensor, flushed radiator, replaced end of wire to sensor and am in the process of examining the water pump to see if by chance the blades are impacted in some way even though it was replaced with the "new" engine.
Thanks again Petros!
Suzanne
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rer233
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Re: Car will not shut off...HELP!!!

Post by rer233 »

Do the accessories (i. e. blower motor, wipers, turn signals, etc) continue to work with the key turned off? Any aftermarket stuff i. e. radio, amplifier, remote start installed? If so, my money's on that (provided the ignition switch is ok.)

As for the overheating, under what conditions does it get hot? Does the cooling fan run when the radiator temp switch is disconnected? If it only gets hot during highway driving, there's probably an obstruction somewhere in the cooling system- most likely the radiator (even if you have flushed it- doesn't always work.) I've replaced a few of them in my Tercs- always fixed my running hot problems- not too expensive. Good luck- hope this helps. Oh yeah- welcome aboard!
if it aint there, there's a good chance it won't break!
83 SR5 Silver/Blue (Snowmobile/work beater)-totaled but drivable
85 SR5 Blue
88 SR5 White (the 'good' one)-not anymore-totaled
87 fwd silver wagon a/t
87 4wd dx Cream (a/t- not anymore- now m/t)
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Petros
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My tercel:: '84 Tercel4wd w/extensive mods
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Re: Car will not shut off...HELP!!!

Post by Petros »

the cooling system is fairly simple, there should be no mystery. Water pump circulates coolant through the engine, and it cools in the radiator. If raditator, hoses, and water pump are all working, and the head gasket on the engine is good, it should cool properly.

make sure it has a good quality thermostat, most of the ones from China are junk, get only Japanese or US brand t-states. Make sure the lower hose on the radiator is stiff and does not get sucked closed when the engine is reved up (the lower radiator hose has suction from the pump on it, and if it is old and weak can flatten out and cut off coolant). The radiator should be a larger, double row unit, The edge of the radiator core is about 1.25 inches thick, smaller single row radiators were installed in the Tercel sedans, and are only about .75" thick, often not enough cooling for the heavier 4wd wagons. They look the same, cost less, and are often installed in 4wd wagons, but do not offer enough cooling power where it gets hot in the summer (like where you live).

If you are losing coolant, with no obvious leak, it means the head gasket is likely compromised. It seeps coolant into the combustion chamber through a weak gasket and it vaporizes during combustion, and it comes out the exhaust as steam (which usually is not noticed).

It is easy to improperly install a head gasket in these cars, they are very sensitive. If it was ever overheated, even briefly, usually the head gasket gets compromised. It could be running great, you do not notice a thing, except you are loosing a little coolant each week and just keep topping it up. It means it is on its way to eventual failure. the shop can test the coolant for exhaust residue, if they find it, that means the head gasket is bad.

In the Repair Guides section of this forum there is a thread I wrote up on "head gasket replacement: Petros method". if you do need a head gasket, print that section out and take it to the mechanic, and tell it to follow this procedure exactly. Or he risks another failed head gasket.

If you are losing coolant, just keep it topped up and it will cool fine. But it should get replaced or it will eventually completely fail and stop running. I know, I have done it.

Good luck.
'87 Tercel 4wd SR5 (current engine swap project)
'84 Tercel 4wd (daily driver, with on going mods)
'92 Mazda MPV 4wd (wife's daily driver)
'85 Tercel 4wd DLX auto(daughter's daily driver)
'01 Honda Civic (other daughter's daily driver)
SmilingVoyeur
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My tercel:: 1983 4WD Tercel Delux Wagon

Re: Car will not shut off...HELP!!!

Post by SmilingVoyeur »

With key removed the accessories continue to work-wipers, lights, all electricity-& engine does not shut down. The main fuse (ign) can be removed altogether and the car starts and will shut down. DOES THE MAIN FUSE GO TO ANYTHING ELSE? Perhaps it will not harm the car if it is run without it?

RE the over-heating The temp goes to the beginning of the red zone within minutes of driving. Located another new Tstat, supposedly the most heavy duty one can own, which is being re-installed with the water pump review. From reading all the related threads, and although I have a relatively new rad cap, I am going to buy another. Any suggestions as to WHICH BRAND to buy? Several flushes of the rad have been done but there seems to be no blockage indicated though I will advise my mechanic to put only distilled water in. Have printed out probably 20 pages (thank you all) to review and forward. Air in the system is the only other diagnosis which is apparent from those notes.

THANK YOU for the effort in being exact. The memos about the thefts have created the impetus to re-install the hidden kill-switch.

Best!
SmilingVoyeur
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My tercel:: 1983 4WD Tercel Delux Wagon

Re: Car will not shut off...HELP!!!

Post by SmilingVoyeur »

P.S. The fan has been rigged so that the fan runs all the time which should help with the cooling of the engine rather than being cooled only at certain temperatures and avoiding the need to examine further issues with sending units/sensors/wiring, etc. I don't believe that this is otherwise harmful but please let me know if this is incorrect.
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Petros
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Re: Car will not shut off...HELP!!!

Post by Petros »

the fan does nothing when the car is moving more than about 5-8 mph, it is only for heavy traffic and when idling when standing still.

it will not harm it to run all the time (for a while), the fan is fairly durable. but I would advise getting it connected correctly. Replace the sender if necessary (I do not think they cost too much). The fan was not intended to run all the time, only occasionally (I seldom hear mine come on, only when stopped in heavy traffic, less than once a week because I can avoid where I live). if it is running all the time, in a few weeks of driving you will have the equivalent of putting perhaps 10 years of normal usage, the fan will wear out eventually.

Usually air entrapment in the Tercel is not a big problem, I have own cars or trucks that you had to bleed the air out of the cooling system or it will overheat, every time you fill the system. not usually a problem on Tercels, might be if you are filling it and it is not level.

I have found the cheap thermostats the biggest problem on cooling systems, I bought one because it was the only one in stock locally, worked okay for only a few months. Than I noticed the temp would fluctuate up and down a little. Fluctuations became larger with each passing week where after about 6-7 months it was starting to concern me. It never got even close to the upper part of the gauge, but these head gaskets are very sensitive to temp so I wanted to find the cause. I thought it could not be the thermostat, the last one was good for like six years, this one was fairly new. I considered everything else that could cause temp to go up and down like that, and decided to try a more costly, higher quality t-stat. Problem solved, and I vowed NEVER to put cheap t-stats in any car again. for about $10 more ($16-18 vs. $6-9 for a cheap one), it is hardly worth risking severe engine damage (and repairs) to save $10.

the way yours is working sounds like it is stuck when cold, and takes more heat than normal to get it to open. I would try another one if nothing else is wrong, I can not think of what else would cause that kind of behavior. It also might be on the verge of failing (will not open at all). Get it fixed soon.

I also decided to preemptively replace the thermostats every 3-4 years (some even recommend every 2 years, but that is not likely necessary with the quality Japanese or USA made ones). I can find the good ones on sale sometimes at Rockauto.com (clearance priced) at only about $4, so I buy several at a time and saved them. this interval is also a good time to flush and replace the antifreeze too. and check all hoses, replace any that look suspicious at all. when you replace the hoses, replace those factory wire hose clamps (if you still have any on your car) with modern stainless strap type clamps.
'87 Tercel 4wd SR5 (current engine swap project)
'84 Tercel 4wd (daily driver, with on going mods)
'92 Mazda MPV 4wd (wife's daily driver)
'85 Tercel 4wd DLX auto(daughter's daily driver)
'01 Honda Civic (other daughter's daily driver)
SmilingVoyeur
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My tercel:: 1983 4WD Tercel Delux Wagon

Re: Car will not shut off...HELP!!!

Post by SmilingVoyeur »

RE overheating....Can buy a new APG radiator double row for 86 and CAT water pump for about 30. (Been flushed a number of times. The rad is going anyhow with a minor leak 1/2 way down that mostly sweats and there doesn't seem to be any way to know if the water pump is working by looking at it so I don't mind putting in a new one...the pump was replaced in 2013 but it's not pricey.) ARE THESE BRANDS OK?Don't mind going with the Spectra Premium (RockAuto) or others. Anybody out there with recommendations?
Last edited by SmilingVoyeur on Tue Jan 16, 2018 12:10 pm, edited 1 time in total.
SmilingVoyeur
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My tercel:: 1983 4WD Tercel Delux Wagon

Re: Car will not shut off...HELP!!!

Post by SmilingVoyeur »

I THINK I HAVE FIGURED IT ALL OUT!!!! Today I downloaded the FSM and studied the wiring diagrams. When the cooling fan was hooked up to run constantly I believe it was wired up, not made to run by removing the sensor. This would create a circuit to the emission control computer, the radiator fan relay, the main engine/ignition relay and the sensors/switches within the emission control computer which at a certain temperature would open creating the open circuit by-passing the main ignition relay's normal use to which they are all connected. I anticipate the cooling system and the gas mileage was impacted as well. Tomorrow I will pass this on to the mechanic who has been pulling his hair out for a long time with me. I expect that reconnecting the fan's wiring to it's original set-up will be relatively simple but if there are any other "heads up" which any of you imagine in addition, please let me know.
Thank you, best wishes and good night. Suzanne
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Petros
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Re: Car will not shut off...HELP!!!

Post by Petros »

usually if the water pump is not leaking, and there is no play in the shaft, it should be good. I have heard of a few very rare instance of the impeller falling off the shaft (so it can not circulate coolant), and anther case where a car that sat for years, had the blades of the impeller all corrode off the base of the impeller. not likley that could happen on a fairly new one.

at worst, if no seal leaks, and no play in the shaft, and you still suspect it, take it out and verify the impeller is attached and in good condition, I would put it back if it checks out. there is mystery to the water pump, it spins and the blades force coolant from the center to the outside edges. NO leaks and bearing is good, it will work.

If you need one I recommend to buy only a new one, not rebuilt (most of those are junk). try and find one made in Japan, it will be high quality. Many of the after market brands buy from suppliers in Japan, often the same supplier that the factory uses, but they put it in their own brand box (private label). So you can not tell if it is good based on brand, and Rockauto often has high quality parts for low prices because they were close out private labled parts for an auto parts store chain. Usually the listing will say country of origin. I steer clear of parts made in communist factories from the orient. some are good, but quality is spotty, not worth it.

One time I was buying all new brake parts for our old mazda 4x4 mpv. I order new, not rebuilt, from rock auto for about one third the price from a local NAPA store. my wife had been talking to one of my daughter's friends, who is a deisel mechanic and does a lot of home side repairs in his home shop, about Rock auto prices. she told me that kyle never buys from rockauto because their cheap parts are crap. He ONLY buys from NAPA because they use the factory supplywe and give a lifetime warranty on their parts. (as if this youngster had more knowledge than me about it, and she wanted to tell me so). I told my wife that if you order the cheapest parts in the catalog from Rockauto that might be true, but usually you can get top quality at a great deal if you shop for name brands. when the box of "cheap" rockauto brake parts arrived, they were all packaged in NAPA boxes, I show them to my wife and said it would have just been a waste of about $300 to buy the same parts from NAPA, we even get the parts in their own boxes!
'87 Tercel 4wd SR5 (current engine swap project)
'84 Tercel 4wd (daily driver, with on going mods)
'92 Mazda MPV 4wd (wife's daily driver)
'85 Tercel 4wd DLX auto(daughter's daily driver)
'01 Honda Civic (other daughter's daily driver)
SmilingVoyeur
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Joined: Sun Jan 07, 2018 3:36 pm
My tercel:: 1983 4WD Tercel Delux Wagon

Re: Car will not shut off...HELP!!!

Post by SmilingVoyeur »

Thank you Petros for your really helpful suggestions. It seems like the Tercel is a little mystery car which is on it's own wavelength that expresses as peculiarities...even when buying new replacement parts. But that's part of the charm of being an owner who really loves them all the same for their simplicity and long-lasting lifespan. And I also think they're cute cars.
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Petros
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Re: Car will not shut off...HELP!!!

Post by Petros »

SmilingVoyeur wrote: Wed Jan 17, 2018 12:18 pm TAnd I also think they're cute cars.
My wife and daughters think otherwise. I like their look as kind of a funky retro-utilitarian-econo box look. like a mini-SUV of more recent vintage, but smaller of course.

These cars are pretty simple compared to a lot of modern cars. On our newer cars I am always chasing sensors, electrical contacts and other nuisances like the auto door locks, the power window system, etc. Crap we do not need and I personally do not want. I think I spend more time on keeping the auto locks working properly on all our other more modern cars than anything else (you risk a theft if you hit "lock" and walk away thinking all of the doors locked when they did not). if you leave a modern car parked too long even when off, the internal systems drag the battery down. Try disconnecting the battery for when you are away for a few weeks, and the darn radio does not work without inputting a security code and resetting all the presets. And the ECM will be all out of whack, and all kinds of "convenience" features give you trouble. I still can't figure out how the automatic settings for different drivers work in my wife's Lexus. You are supposed to set the six seat adjustments, all the mirrors, etc, program it for Driver A or B. With the push of a button it changes from driver A to driver B settings...it does not seem to come back to where I want it, so I just set them manually every time I drive it, thank you very much. Who needs that junk? the "climate controls" are also a PIA, I just as soon have a button that says "heat", like our Tercel. the heated seat gets way too hot, burns up my back side. I asked my wife to leave mine off please, she would automatically turn them both on when we get in on cold day. I would not notice and after a bit my back sides starts sweating and getting hot and uncomfortable. I want to jump out of the seat!

It takes me less time to replace the head gasket on my Tercel4wd than it does to fix the auto locks on the lexus (heck, taking the darn door apart to get to the module takes over an hour!).

My daughters think I "love" my old little Tercel. I would not think if it that way, it serves me well, but I do not baby it, it always needs to be cleaned (we live on rural roads and it get really dirty, hardly seem worth cleaning it gets that way in one day), it is full of stuff I need to do certain feild inspections on construction sites, and I can not seem to keep it organized. So the stuff in it is always a jumbled mess. I do reglar maintenance of course, and always thinking of ways to make it better. I can not say I "love" it. Strong emotion for an old econo-box. I just have not found anything I want to own more.

I am recently driving a 2002 honda civic we got cheap (it was my mother in law's, but she can not drive anymore because of her eyesight, so we got it cheap). My Tercel needs some heavy maintenance and I am putting it off so I have been driving the civil. It is not a bad car, low miles because they hardly drove it. but I recently went up a rough driveway and the bottom dragged badly, my Tercel4wd would have cleared it fine. It rides kind of harsh, and a lot of the newer convenience features are troublesome (trunk pops open randomly, I think the cable from the lever next to the driver is out of adjustment), AM radio sucks, the seats are not as comfortable as my much older Tercel4wd, and the seat clunks back and forth a bit with each stop/start/turn, steering gives some harsh feedback to your hands, the auto locks do not work, the cruise control is jerky and it auto kicks off randomly (this is common with other Honda I have driven). It is noisy insdie, much more than most modern cars. I suppose these all can be corrected, but there are just so many little problems, problems that the TErcel will never have because most of the systems are not even present on it. likely we will clean it up and sell it, for some reason those little economy box (in a swoopy looking body) are very popular around here. Perhaps some high school kid will want it, lower it and turn it into a bottom dragging ricer.
'87 Tercel 4wd SR5 (current engine swap project)
'84 Tercel 4wd (daily driver, with on going mods)
'92 Mazda MPV 4wd (wife's daily driver)
'85 Tercel 4wd DLX auto(daughter's daily driver)
'01 Honda Civic (other daughter's daily driver)
SmilingVoyeur
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My tercel:: 1983 4WD Tercel Delux Wagon

Re: Car will not shut off...HELP!!!

Post by SmilingVoyeur »

Thanks. I simply have a slight love for my car. Don't analyse it much but it serves me so well. And, I receive kind remarks about it, the best one being left on my car which said, "You own my dream car. Even the exact color" left on my car in a parking lot on the other side of a receipt. My 4wd Tercel accommodates being repaired for a fraction of the cost of other cars, allows for less expensive insurance and is a somewhat blast from the past which not everyone understands nor regards as worth remembering. I can have other cars...but don't want them. This is fine for now and if it goes completely away, so be it. Other cars seem like toasters that can be bought anywhere and which provide other costs that I don't need to have hanging on my head. What I pay for in repairs they pay for their mandatory check-ups...plus their repairs.
Am totally delighted to have found this site which supports my having my car. As far as I am concerned, "they" (the entire world for the most part) just don't get it. Toyota made the car to impress with their engineering and cost-effective design as being something of value and afterwards went along with the other car manufacturers' thesis which was similar to Bill Gates...don't make it too good...let them buy a new model year after year. Sorry Bill, I find that, and you, boring. Cars, as well as computers, should run and run and run as long as the parts last and that (Bill's) thesis is very vulgar and unacceptable to me.
And that underlying understanding is more than likely seeping into the awareness of the Tercel owners on this site which I comprehend and appreciate. And, I don't have to text someone, which is sometimes offensive, for an answer. And in addition, I find the site to be very efficient and well-run. Kudos to all. Best.
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Petros
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Re: Car will not shut off...HELP!!!

Post by Petros »

I have a fantasy of doing a ground up on a Tercel4wd, and build into it everything I want, improving many details. I am thinking of full leather seats that will look similar to the orignal SR5 style fabric panels, fully upgraded suspension and brakes, twin-cam fuel injected engine tweaked to optimize low end torque and high fuel economy, more insulation for a quite ride, perhaps a nice custom paint job (even thought the original two tone SR-5 paint is so retro cool I may go with it). Perhaps a full instrument cluster (I have one from an MR2 sports car that looks similar in style but has full gauges, and the tach red lines at 7,200 rpms!).

AS far as mandatory maintenance on the newer cars, I am always shocked when someone told them they took in there 2016 4x4 whatever for a tune up and paid almost $800, and they felt they go off easy. That is more than double the total cost to keep my Tercel on the road per year. Add into it all of the periodic recalls for airbags, sensor, brakes, wiring, etc. it sounds like such a hassle, why own one?

Hey smillingvoyager, you may have already said so, but what part of the country are you located?
'87 Tercel 4wd SR5 (current engine swap project)
'84 Tercel 4wd (daily driver, with on going mods)
'92 Mazda MPV 4wd (wife's daily driver)
'85 Tercel 4wd DLX auto(daughter's daily driver)
'01 Honda Civic (other daughter's daily driver)
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