The Air Conditioning thread...

How-to's and repair secrets for your 4WD can be found here. Have a question? Ask it in here!
User avatar
Mark
Highest Ranking Member
Posts: 883
Joined: Mon Apr 22, 2013 9:49 pm
My tercel:: 1984 Automatic, 1981 sedan
Location: Victoria, B.C.

Re: The Air Conditioning thread...

Post by Mark »

Every fridge/AC system I've ever worked on (admittely, not in cars) had the refrigerant added in liquid form to the condenser (downstream of the high pressure side of the compressor).
User avatar
Mark
Highest Ranking Member
Posts: 883
Joined: Mon Apr 22, 2013 9:49 pm
My tercel:: 1984 Automatic, 1981 sedan
Location: Victoria, B.C.

Re: The Air Conditioning thread...

Post by Mark »

I just realised that the ones I've worked on required using a seperate pump which the typical auto mechanic may not have so with cars the refrigerant would have to be added to the low pressure side of the compressor while it's running. It seems wierd to me though since it would risk liquid refrigerant going into the compressor and damaging it. I'll stop blabbing now since I have no experience with car A/C systems and I'm just guessing.
User avatar
rer233
Highest Ranking Member
Posts: 1013
Joined: Sat Jan 01, 2011 1:49 pm
My tercel:: Multiple

Re: The Air Conditioning thread...

Post by rer233 »

Paul- Sorry I didn't have more time for a thorough answer, but I was at work and don't have time for posts (esp with the way I type.) Normally at work I just read a few posts when I get a minuite or two of free time (to see what's going on in tercel-land.) In this case however I had to make an exception- someone could get hurt REAL bad. Would hate to hear Vienna was a widow, and your kids had to grow up without a dad (esp. one like you.)

Anyway, after seeing your drawing, the Midas Morons screwed you-
Green dot- low pressure (suction) gas.
Red dot- high pressure (discharge) gas.
Blue dot- high pressure liquid.

High pressure adapter will pretty much work on either the red or blue position, but the low pressure MUST on the green position. No way your old compressor could be charged properly with the fittings in their current positions. Did Midas also charge the system when they installed the fittings? If so I think I'd pay them a visit and at least get my money back (or better yet, get on the I-net and download some info on what can happen when a freon can is hooked to a high side port with the a/c clutch engaged and show it to the manager- or better yet the area supervisor (if there is such a thing.))

Good luck- glad to hear you're OK. Rich.
if it aint there, there's a good chance it won't break!
83 SR5 Silver/Blue (Snowmobile/work beater)-totaled but drivable
85 SR5 Blue
88 SR5 White (the 'good' one)-not anymore-totaled
87 fwd silver wagon a/t
87 4wd dx Cream (a/t- not anymore- now m/t)
User avatar
irowiki
Highest Ranking Member
Posts: 3463
Joined: Tue Apr 02, 2013 10:02 am
Location: Farmington, NM

Re: The Air Conditioning thread...

Post by irowiki »

I was at work too. It's all good. I had posted a strange diagram so was just posting to let you know I found a Tercel one. Fortunately for me (thank Toyota?) The compressor never actually engaged. I was being super cautious at least.

I think I added double the oil needed though.

The Midas guy did a great job on our Camry with the ac conversion. The Camry is a little newer though and was designed for both freons, so maybe it was more logical of a setup or something. I'll check it later and make sure it was done right.

On the Tercel he mentioned the usual conversion fitting for the low side didn't work and had to get something special. Now I know why. It kept leaking too. Now we know why!

This would probably explain why it wasn't vacuuming properly. Would only pull 21 pounds negative pressure instead of the expected 24.9 something for 5000 feet while over taxing my air compressor.
Former Tercel Enthusiast (not a practical family car anymore but they still have a place in my heart)

Site administrator, if something is broken, PM me!

87 Corolla FX16, 105k
94 Jamboree RV (Ford E-350), 90k
95 Camry Wagon, 170k
97 4runner, 275k
User avatar
rer233
Highest Ranking Member
Posts: 1013
Joined: Sat Jan 01, 2011 1:49 pm
My tercel:: Multiple

Re: The Air Conditioning thread...

Post by rer233 »

Mark Yeah Ive worked in one auto shop that had a refrigerant pump- worked great! None of the others had that equipment, so I've had to first evacuate the system, then hook up the freon can, purge the charging line,open the high side valve till the pressures stabilize, and close the high side valve. I then start the engine, turn on the a/c on and dribble the freon slowly thru the low side valve. I continue doing this till I've installed the proper amount of r-134 (roughly 80% of the listed r-12 capacity.)
if it aint there, there's a good chance it won't break!
83 SR5 Silver/Blue (Snowmobile/work beater)-totaled but drivable
85 SR5 Blue
88 SR5 White (the 'good' one)-not anymore-totaled
87 fwd silver wagon a/t
87 4wd dx Cream (a/t- not anymore- now m/t)
User avatar
irowiki
Highest Ranking Member
Posts: 3463
Joined: Tue Apr 02, 2013 10:02 am
Location: Farmington, NM

Re: The Air Conditioning thread...

Post by irowiki »

Midas insisted that is the way it is supposed to work and they converted it properly. OH WAIT. Just looked at everything AGAIN. The high pressure fitting was put on the low pressure side, and the low pressure fitting is on the high pressure liquid side.

These are not my pictures, these show other successful conversions:

Image
Image

Time to call midas customer service...

Someone else on this forum a long time ago did the conversion themselves and got 30 degree air...
Former Tercel Enthusiast (not a practical family car anymore but they still have a place in my heart)

Site administrator, if something is broken, PM me!

87 Corolla FX16, 105k
94 Jamboree RV (Ford E-350), 90k
95 Camry Wagon, 170k
97 4runner, 275k
User avatar
irowiki
Highest Ranking Member
Posts: 3463
Joined: Tue Apr 02, 2013 10:02 am
Location: Farmington, NM

Re: The Air Conditioning thread...

Post by irowiki »

as midas did it:
improper tercel AC conversion.png
as it should have been:
proper tercel AC conversion.png
Here's my letter with some details redacted:
VIN: JT2AL32V9H3667917
NOTE: For the purpose of clarity, the engine in this car is a 1.5L 3-AC used in 1983-1986 second gen tercels, the wagon was held over for the 87-88 model year. I think this may be some cause of the problems I am having with getting the conversion working properly. For all intents and purposes, this is a 1986 Tercel.

Hi,

Back in may I had this car converted to use r134a at your <snip> location. It never worked right. Sub-Warm air at best, leaking conversion fittings, and I dug deeper and found out the conversion fittings were installed wrong.

After researching this issue and consulting with fellow Tercel Wagon owners, I found out the high side fitting was installed on the low side (suction), and the low side fitting was installed on the high (liquid, after the condenser) side, so if say, I wanted to recharge the AC myself later, it would be impossible and VERY UNSAFE! If one did not know about the switch up, they could attach a Freon bottle to the high pressure side in this setup easily and it would explode from the pressure generated by the compressor.

I took the car back into Midas, talked to the person who oversees AC work and he claims it is the proper setup, should be working fine, and the leak isn't covered by warranty but they would fix the leaks, charge me for that time and materials, but not the Freon. I agree because I just want it to work already.

Invoice <snip>, service date 7/30/2015

$92.09 later, it was claimed to be fixed and working fine. I will note there was no charge for the Freon with this service. However I still have very poor performance from the AC system. The sight glass is foamy and bubbly like there is air in the system and not enough Freon. The compressor is slightly surging at idle due to low pressure. It also looks like there is too much dye as it is very yellow. I am unable to troubleshoot it myself due to incorrect fitting installation.

Other people I know with this same car have AC systems putting out sub 40 degree air. I would like to note I have had my 1992 Camry into this same location for a r134a conversion and it works flawlessly. So I know the quality is there, I just feel I am being stiffed on this vehicle.

This is the proper fitting setup for my compressor:

http://i.imgur.com/opQ1jEq.jpg

The compressor on the left has been converted to r134a. The red fitting is the high side, the blue fitting is the low side. On my car the "Red" fitting was installed where the blue one is in the picture, and the "blue" fitting was installed on the high pressure line going to the accumulator/drier.

Here is another picture of a working (30 degree air!) conversion:
http://i.imgur.com/JUlEYyi.jpg

This is how the conversion fittings were installed in a very UNSAFE manner:
http://i.imgur.com/vboVPSK.png

This is how they should have been installed:
http://i.imgur.com/rOeFhfj.png

I would like the system to work the way it should, and be safe to work on. I will note that the conversion is still under warranty. I would either like a full refund of the conversion so I can take the car elsewhere and have the conversion properly done, or have it properly redone at Midas, including evacuation, proper fitting install, flush, and a recharge with the proper oil amount.

Thank you,
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.
Former Tercel Enthusiast (not a practical family car anymore but they still have a place in my heart)

Site administrator, if something is broken, PM me!

87 Corolla FX16, 105k
94 Jamboree RV (Ford E-350), 90k
95 Camry Wagon, 170k
97 4runner, 275k
User avatar
Petros
Highest Ranking Member
Posts: 11930
Joined: Sun Jan 28, 2007 6:31 pm
My tercel:: '84 Tercel4wd w/extensive mods
Location: Arlington WA USA

Re: The Air Conditioning thread...

Post by Petros »

good luck. big chains tend to be unresponsive to complaints, you will have to keep working your way up the food chain of management. Also you might let them know you are a moderator on a Toyota forum and all the members will read about how well they severe you. Not likley to help, but certainly going higher up, making a "friendly neusance" of yourself, calling and writing every day, until it is resolved might help.
'87 Tercel 4wd SR5 (current engine swap project)
'84 Tercel 4wd (daily driver, with on going mods)
'92 Mazda MPV 4wd (wife's daily driver)
'85 Tercel 4wd DLX auto(daughter's daily driver)
'01 Honda Civic (other daughter's daily driver)
User avatar
irowiki
Highest Ranking Member
Posts: 3463
Joined: Tue Apr 02, 2013 10:02 am
Location: Farmington, NM

Re: The Air Conditioning thread...

Post by irowiki »

Actually, when they did the muffler wrong and didn't the supervisor on duty did not want to admit it (on the same car) I emailed the same address (on the midas website), it went to like the vice president of midas, he sent it to the western USA manager, who sent it to the NM manager, who then sent it to the owner of the shop, and she called me and said to bring the car back in. So we'll see!

I have a conversion kit and will try converting Buck myself...
Former Tercel Enthusiast (not a practical family car anymore but they still have a place in my heart)

Site administrator, if something is broken, PM me!

87 Corolla FX16, 105k
94 Jamboree RV (Ford E-350), 90k
95 Camry Wagon, 170k
97 4runner, 275k
User avatar
Petros
Highest Ranking Member
Posts: 11930
Joined: Sun Jan 28, 2007 6:31 pm
My tercel:: '84 Tercel4wd w/extensive mods
Location: Arlington WA USA

Re: The Air Conditioning thread...

Post by Petros »

irowiki wrote: I have a conversion kit and will try converting Buck myself...
despite that my time be valuable, this I have found is usually the fastest way to get something fixed properly, with least time invested, and lowest cost.

Every few years or so I let my wife talk me into allowing her to take one of our cars in for service to a local shop, when I do not have the time to spend on it. In almost every instance (except for a simple oil change) I have regretted doing it. not only was it costly, the amount of time going back and fourth, getting it resolved, etc. was not worth it. I could have spent less time, and certainly less money, if I just took some time off my work to fix it. I end up losing that much time shuttling the car back and forth until it is either resolved, or I end up fixing it again after they can not find the problem. I even worry about letting them change the oil, if I do it I stand there and watch what they are doing, more than a few instances have they inadvertantly let customers drive away without any oil in it. They will also check other fluids, lights, filters, etc to look for other things to sell you, and I worry they may forget to put the brake reservoir filler caps back in place, or they might cross thread the power steering cap, or cause some damage than if they just left it in place.

Peice of mind, even if there was no money saved, is sometimes worth it. I also notices that you almost never see expensive cars in the quick lube places, there is a good reason for that.
'87 Tercel 4wd SR5 (current engine swap project)
'84 Tercel 4wd (daily driver, with on going mods)
'92 Mazda MPV 4wd (wife's daily driver)
'85 Tercel 4wd DLX auto(daughter's daily driver)
'01 Honda Civic (other daughter's daily driver)
User avatar
irowiki
Highest Ranking Member
Posts: 3463
Joined: Tue Apr 02, 2013 10:02 am
Location: Farmington, NM

Re: The Air Conditioning thread...

Post by irowiki »

I bought everything I need, the manifold gauge set, the vacuum pump, have the air compressor. so it'll be a good experience to try a conversion from scratch.
Former Tercel Enthusiast (not a practical family car anymore but they still have a place in my heart)

Site administrator, if something is broken, PM me!

87 Corolla FX16, 105k
94 Jamboree RV (Ford E-350), 90k
95 Camry Wagon, 170k
97 4runner, 275k
User avatar
CathodeRayTube
Top Notch Member
Posts: 268
Joined: Mon Aug 04, 2008 8:23 pm
My tercel:: 1985 4x4 Automatic - restored
Location: Gettysburg Pennsylvania

Re: The Air Conditioning thread...

Post by CathodeRayTube »

I never imagined this thread would take off like it has... lots to read. My original problem still isnt fixed...did not have AC this summer at all because i was away all together and never bothered to fix it...my last repair attempt about a year ago in Fall of 14 failed, i could not find any complete gasket/rebuild kit for the compressor so i ordered generic rubber O rings from China...of about the same dimension as the leaking original ones in the compressor and rebuilt it myself using them. about a day later it just blew the cheap crappy O rings out the seams of the compressor and they appeared to have turned to mush either from the heat or reacting with the oil/refrigerant...this coming spring i will attempt rebuilding it again, this time with the original old O rings, but with gasket shellac this time...im determined to try to fix it as cheaply as possible to see if it can be done, out of principal, even tho i could just go buy a new compressor.
86 T4 DX 4x4 - Diesel Swap project
85 T4 DX 4x4 Automatic
83 T4 SR5 - junker/parts
94 4Runner V6
86 Mercury Grand Marquis
88 Lincoln Town Car
90 Yugo GV+
85 F250 dually 6.9 turbo diesel
81 VW Rabbit Turbo diesel project
Notmikeb
Top Notch Member
Posts: 235
Joined: Wed Jun 24, 2015 4:53 am
My tercel:: 85 Tercel 5dr FWD
Location: Laurel, MD

Re: The Air Conditioning thread...

Post by Notmikeb »

I have a theoretically good a/c compressor if you need it as well as a bunch of other a/c parts. Didn't want to bother trying to get mine to work so I ripped it all out. I'm just south of you in MD too.
-------------
1985 Tercel 5dr Hatchback
2003 Chevy Suburban
2014 Ford Flex

"I don't get it! I've cut this thing FIVE times now and it's STILL too SHORT!"
User avatar
CathodeRayTube
Top Notch Member
Posts: 268
Joined: Mon Aug 04, 2008 8:23 pm
My tercel:: 1985 4x4 Automatic - restored
Location: Gettysburg Pennsylvania

Re: The Air Conditioning thread...

Post by CathodeRayTube »

i see. i may take you up on that. do you have a condenser? mine is functional but the threads are very corroded and the one pipe is bent up pretty good...
86 T4 DX 4x4 - Diesel Swap project
85 T4 DX 4x4 Automatic
83 T4 SR5 - junker/parts
94 4Runner V6
86 Mercury Grand Marquis
88 Lincoln Town Car
90 Yugo GV+
85 F250 dually 6.9 turbo diesel
81 VW Rabbit Turbo diesel project
Notmikeb
Top Notch Member
Posts: 235
Joined: Wed Jun 24, 2015 4:53 am
My tercel:: 85 Tercel 5dr FWD
Location: Laurel, MD

Re: The Air Conditioning thread...

Post by Notmikeb »

I do. The corner is a little mushed but it seems functional. I don't remember which lines I have that are still good. A few twisted off when I removed them. You're welcome to all of it if you have a use. Maybe I could trade you for some parts off your junker car?
-------------
1985 Tercel 5dr Hatchback
2003 Chevy Suburban
2014 Ford Flex

"I don't get it! I've cut this thing FIVE times now and it's STILL too SHORT!"
Post Reply