slamming out of first gear on take off from a stop

How-to's and repair secrets for your 4WD can be found here. Have a question? Ask it in here!
Abra-Cadaver
Top Notch Member
Posts: 224
Joined: Wed Sep 11, 2013 5:29 pm
My tercel:: free ground-score: 1986 Tercel SR5

Re: slamming out of first gear on take off from a stop

Post by Abra-Cadaver » Fri Feb 09, 2018 2:16 pm

Looking on the passenger side of the trans there is a 19mm, a covered 24mm, and another 24mm higherup/farther back. I'm guessing that highest 24mm is the correct fill spot- or is it the other 19mm (not the 8turn 19mm that sits diagonal, I'm talking about the one farther back and above that on the passenger side.)

SirFoxx
Advanced Member
Posts: 52
Joined: Sun Feb 05, 2017 5:42 pm
My tercel:: 1988 DLX Tercel Wagon w/ weber (RIP), 1985 4wd Tercel SR5

Re: slamming out of first gear on take off from a stop

Post by SirFoxx » Fri Feb 09, 2018 4:08 pm

Not gonna lie, I also have a similar issue. I need to try the atf flush. With mine, instead of popping out of first, I cannot get it into first if it's going faster than 5mph. And third gear is a bit crunchy. What causes third to crunch?

Abra-Cadaver
Top Notch Member
Posts: 224
Joined: Wed Sep 11, 2013 5:29 pm
My tercel:: free ground-score: 1986 Tercel SR5

Re: slamming out of first gear on take off from a stop

Post by Abra-Cadaver » Fri Feb 09, 2018 4:54 pm

Peter: I did the test you said, accelerate in first slightly, let off, then accelerate harder and it never popped out of gear. Tried in second as well. Did first gear about 10 times, more aggressive each time and never popped out. It did pop out 2 times during a normal start, even though I've got the technique pretty much down for making sure it's fully engaged.
I just drained the old tranny oil. Took out both driver side check plugs, 2 bottom 24mm drains, and 19mm "8turn" bolt completely out to drain for a couple hours. Both magnets had the metallic paste, esp the rear one, but more alarming was a 1/16" chunk of metal on the magnet. I took pictures but I can't seem to upload them directly to the board here from my phone. When I get home I will.
Until then, I have 2 quarts ATF, and 2 quarts 80w90 in, just started to over flow towards the very end of the 4th quart which I think is good. My slight whine with the clutch out in neutral has completely gone away. I'll drive a few miles today, and cruise somewhere tomorrow, then warm it up Sunday and drain it and see whatever we come up with. Thanks for the input everyone, I'll keep you posted with the Cadaver.
Noah
Last edited by Abra-Cadaver on Fri Feb 09, 2018 10:06 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Abra-Cadaver
Top Notch Member
Posts: 224
Joined: Wed Sep 11, 2013 5:29 pm
My tercel:: free ground-score: 1986 Tercel SR5

Re: slamming out of first gear on take off from a stop

Post by Abra-Cadaver » Fri Feb 09, 2018 5:48 pm

SirFoxx wrote:
Fri Feb 09, 2018 4:08 pm
Not gonna lie, I also have a similar issue. I need to try the atf flush. With mine, instead of popping out of first, I cannot get it into first if it's going faster than 5mph. And third gear is a bit crunchy. What causes third to crunch?
Double clutch when it does that, it'll slide right in.

User avatar
Petros
Highest Ranking Member
Posts: 10279
Joined: Sun Jan 28, 2007 6:31 pm
My tercel:: '84 Tercel4wd w/extensive mods
Location: Arlington WA USA

Re: slamming out of first gear on take off from a stop

Post by Petros » Fri Feb 09, 2018 8:09 pm

SirFoxx,

after the flush, put in a 50/50 mix of MTF+gear oil (MTF is synthetic gear lube), and there is a graphite additive for manual trans that is supposed to improve shifts, I got mine from Canada. not sure I have seen it in the states, but it was like $7. after the flush, and that treatment, that might help your shifting.

do not use more than 50 percent synthetic gear oil, it will leak out of all of the seals, and make shifting more difficult, it is too slippery to make our old style syncros work well, and it will be like the syncro is completely gone.
'87 Tercel 4wd SR5 (current engine swap project)
'84 Tercel 4wd (daily driver, with on going mods)
'92 Mazda MPV 4wd (wife's daily driver)
'85 Tercel 4wd DLX auto(daughter's daily driver)
'01 Honda Civic (other daughter's daily driver)

Abra-Cadaver
Top Notch Member
Posts: 224
Joined: Wed Sep 11, 2013 5:29 pm
My tercel:: free ground-score: 1986 Tercel SR5

Re: slamming out of first gear on take off from a stop

Post by Abra-Cadaver » Fri Feb 09, 2018 10:08 pm

So far after draining and filing with 50/50 ATF and 80/90 gear oil it has not popped out of gear once or felt weird. However I reset the trip odometer and it is stuck at 0.9. Regular odometer is working fine ???

Abra-Cadaver
Top Notch Member
Posts: 224
Joined: Wed Sep 11, 2013 5:29 pm
My tercel:: free ground-score: 1986 Tercel SR5

Re: slamming out of first gear on take off from a stop

Post by Abra-Cadaver » Sat Feb 10, 2018 10:07 am

Here's a pic of the metal chunk that was on the rear magnet. I drained the trans oil into a windshield washer bottle, and when I brought it to Oreillys to recycle, i put it on the counter and ask the guy "hey do you guys recycle used windshield washer fluid here?" and he's staring right at the bottle and shaking his head and says "no, we can't recycle that here. We only can recycle motor oil, tranny fluid, gear oil, old batteries, things like that" and I just stared at him. Then I had to show him the bottle again tell him it's gear oil, it's just in a windshield wiper bottle and it still took him a second, then he was embarrassed and started laughing hahaha :lol:
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.

User avatar
Petros
Highest Ranking Member
Posts: 10279
Joined: Sun Jan 28, 2007 6:31 pm
My tercel:: '84 Tercel4wd w/extensive mods
Location: Arlington WA USA

Re: slamming out of first gear on take off from a stop

Post by Petros » Sun Feb 11, 2018 7:00 pm

looks like a piece of the syncro, or perhaps a gear tooth. if the gear clusters are good, it can be saved if you can locate replacment syncros, seals and bearings are all available.
'87 Tercel 4wd SR5 (current engine swap project)
'84 Tercel 4wd (daily driver, with on going mods)
'92 Mazda MPV 4wd (wife's daily driver)
'85 Tercel 4wd DLX auto(daughter's daily driver)
'01 Honda Civic (other daughter's daily driver)

Abra-Cadaver
Top Notch Member
Posts: 224
Joined: Wed Sep 11, 2013 5:29 pm
My tercel:: free ground-score: 1986 Tercel SR5

Re: slamming out of first gear on take off from a stop

Post by Abra-Cadaver » Mon Feb 12, 2018 4:56 pm

Petros wrote:
Sun Feb 11, 2018 7:00 pm
looks like a piece of the syncro, or perhaps a gear tooth. if the gear clusters are good, it can be saved if you can locate replacment syncros, seals and bearings are all available.
not sure where to find synchros.... Looks like there are different trans kits, different size OD bearings?? I'm not sure what bearing/seal kit I would need

User avatar
garyfish
Highest Ranking Member
Posts: 692
Joined: Sat Nov 19, 2005 4:22 pm
My tercel:: 1985 Tercel SR5, stock; 1987 T4WD DLX wagon, manual tranny
Location: North Coastal California

Re: slamming out of first gear on take off from a stop

Post by garyfish » Mon Feb 12, 2018 10:47 pm

BK224WS is the part # for the bearing/seal kit, with all 5 synchronizer rings, which fits all 1983-88 4WD Tercel wagons with the Z50F 6-speed manual transmission

I could only find one online outlet for kit BK224WS... at O'Reilly Auto for $973.99
https://www.oreillyauto.com/detail/powe ... ws/4673763


there are a couple past threads on this topic which might be of interest here:
viewtopic.php?f=3&t=11881
viewtopic.php?t=9942

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

EDIT:

it's possible that the BK224WS tranny rebuild kit could also be available from the following online source (for $643.98)... scroll almost all the way to the bottom of the page, or do a "find" for Z50F:
http://www.drivetrain.com/parts_catalog ... l_kit.html
1985 Tercel SR5 4WD wagon, 300K
1987 Tercel DLX 4WD wagon, 6-speed manual, 246K -- got this one running Jan. 2015 (had been sitting for 2 years)

User avatar
Petros
Highest Ranking Member
Posts: 10279
Joined: Sun Jan 28, 2007 6:31 pm
My tercel:: '84 Tercel4wd w/extensive mods
Location: Arlington WA USA

Re: slamming out of first gear on take off from a stop

Post by Petros » Tue Feb 13, 2018 12:45 am

there is a thead on this topic, list all known kits, most are now NLA (out of production), but most of the separate parts are available, excpt gasketts. best is to just use Permatex instead of gaskets anyway, all new cars do that, and all trans shops now only use Permatex form-a-gasket or similar.

in the thread, I think it is over in the Parts forum, it lists the bearing part numbers, seal part numbers, and where to buy them. sometimes someone clean out a ware house and a trans kit shows up, or several sets of new sycros pops up in an auto parts suppliers website. I think I bought the last known complete TERcel4wd trans rebuild kit in north america in 2014, for too much.

that one listed above, if they actually have it (many list it but when you order it you get "NLA"), is way too much. $900? the parts are not worth that much. you can buy all the parts separately for less, except gaskets, and than you can still find syncros. not any more, unless you get lucky.

Forum member Xirdneh seems to know more about how to find syncros, and where seals and bearings can be bought.
'87 Tercel 4wd SR5 (current engine swap project)
'84 Tercel 4wd (daily driver, with on going mods)
'92 Mazda MPV 4wd (wife's daily driver)
'85 Tercel 4wd DLX auto(daughter's daily driver)
'01 Honda Civic (other daughter's daily driver)

Abra-Cadaver
Top Notch Member
Posts: 224
Joined: Wed Sep 11, 2013 5:29 pm
My tercel:: free ground-score: 1986 Tercel SR5

Re: slamming out of first gear on take off from a stop

Post by Abra-Cadaver » Tue Feb 13, 2018 3:07 pm

Petros wrote:
Tue Feb 13, 2018 12:45 am
there is a thead on this topic, list all known kits, most are now NLA (out of production), but most of the separate parts are available, excpt gasketts. best is to just use Permatex instead of gaskets anyway, all new cars do that, and all trans shops now only use Permatex form-a-gasket or similar.

in the thread, I think it is over in the Parts forum, it lists the bearing part numbers, seal part numbers, and where to buy them. sometimes someone clean out a ware house and a trans kit shows up, or several sets of new sycros pops up in an auto parts suppliers website. I think I bought the last known complete TERcel4wd trans rebuild kit in north america in 2014, for too much.

that one listed above, if they actually have it (many list it but when you order it you get "NLA"), is way too much. $900? the parts are not worth that much. you can buy all the parts separately for less, except gaskets, and than you can still find syncros. not any more, unless you get lucky.

Forum member Xirdneh seems to know more about how to find syncros, and where seals and bearings can be bought.
thanks for the info... that is wayyyy too expensive for these cars.

User avatar
Petros
Highest Ranking Member
Posts: 10279
Joined: Sun Jan 28, 2007 6:31 pm
My tercel:: '84 Tercel4wd w/extensive mods
Location: Arlington WA USA

Re: slamming out of first gear on take off from a stop

Post by Petros » Tue Feb 13, 2018 5:49 pm

that kit price is a rip off: it has 5 syncros, which used to have dealer price of about $25 each, and it shows 5 or 6 bearings, about $20-30 each, and a bunch of seals that are all less than $10 ea, and the gaskets (a tube of permatex is under $10). Grand total: less than $300. I paid $500, about 5 years ago, and realized I got ripped off. buy the parts, skip the kit. they likely do not have it anyway, they just sown it on the web site.

if you really need syncos they do show up occasionally on line, or if you inquire in on-line parts networks, sometimes less than the dealer price.

Actually however, after your flush, it appears it was just the detent all gummed up since it has not popped out since. if you ever pull the trans for other service (clutch, pilot bearing, etc) might be worth considering replacing the five seals...but you can do all four external seals without pulling the trans at all (CV axles, 4wd selector, rear output shaft), all are available and not costly. these seals are common to a lot of different vehicles so they are standard basic parts, and still available. The input shaft seals rarely fails, only if you get the bearing failing behind the input shaft (which means you have to pull it anyway).

If you have any leaky seals by all means replace them ASAP, you do not want to risk running low on lube and than trashing the trans, than it gets real expensive.
'87 Tercel 4wd SR5 (current engine swap project)
'84 Tercel 4wd (daily driver, with on going mods)
'92 Mazda MPV 4wd (wife's daily driver)
'85 Tercel 4wd DLX auto(daughter's daily driver)
'01 Honda Civic (other daughter's daily driver)

Abra-Cadaver
Top Notch Member
Posts: 224
Joined: Wed Sep 11, 2013 5:29 pm
My tercel:: free ground-score: 1986 Tercel SR5

Re: slamming out of first gear on take off from a stop

Post by Abra-Cadaver » Wed Feb 14, 2018 12:06 pm

Though it is shifting smoother since putting the mix in, I honestly think I have just figured out how to recognize what feeling in the shifter will cause it to pop out. It has popped out 3 times with the 50/50 mix in. I've got about 70 miles on it, I'm going to drive and drain it today to look for any more metal, and fill with 50% regular 80w/90 and 50% synthetic 75/90 gear oil.

Abra-Cadaver
Top Notch Member
Posts: 224
Joined: Wed Sep 11, 2013 5:29 pm
My tercel:: free ground-score: 1986 Tercel SR5

Re: slamming out of first gear on take off from a stop

Post by Abra-Cadaver » Thu Feb 15, 2018 10:53 pm

drove 110 miles with 50/50 mix and drained..
may have broken the tip of my pinky when the socket slipped off the shitty slim-head bolt. Who designed those????? :x
looked thoroughly and shined strong light in the fluid and didn't see any other metal chunks. Drain plugs only had a small amount of metallic paste on them (i'm guessing residual from initial drain before?)
Filled with 2 quarts 80w90, 1.5 quarts synthetic 75w90, .5 quart Lucas "transmission fix/stop slip" so I got a full gallon in and it was spilling out both check holes...
Took the long way home through all the red lights and it popped out of gear only once, but not nearly as violent as before. I have been able to get it "notched" into 1st gear from a dead stop and take off fine most times. When i feel it go into 1st without a *click* or a notch feeling, I start in 2nd and quickly shift to 1st and theres no problems... but I know if I let the clutch out in 1st without that click, it's going to pop out of gear.

Engine is leaking more oil than I'd like, so I went ahead and decided to try the expensive "blue devil" stop leak product which claims it only needs one treatment- you don't need to add it at every oil change. So I'll give an update on that. It was as thin as water.

-Noah
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.
Last edited by Abra-Cadaver on Fri Feb 16, 2018 1:25 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Post Reply