Cardone CV Axle troubles

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Toyotise
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Cardone CV Axle troubles

Post by Toyotise »

Cardone CV Axle troubles are well known here. Having to do so much finish work to make it functional speaks poorly about the manufacturer integrity. Here are some of my observations and attempts toward solutions

Tried filing a ramp and a beginning taper on tips of the output shaft side of the cv axles. Still doesn’t go in freely like the old ones. Looks like the spline width at the outermost diameter it too wide at the top. It needs to taper more. Don’t want to take off any more material than I need and induce free play between the differential and the output shaft splines. I do not have access to a differential “female” spline end to do the valve compound lapping trick. Interested in buying one if someone has a scrap one laying around. Cardone end on top, Original on bottom.
FF53CAF7-71D2-4A38-9796-0E40FA915A71.jpeg
Additionally the oil sealing surfaces on the hub side of the cv axles is extremely rough. Theres a machining lead that’s very pronounced. I know oil sealing surfaces you don’t want to be perfectly smooth, but this seems way to rough. You can see the ridges in the photograph. Anyone experience trouble from this machining lead? My instinct is to file it down and polish it with some 400-600 grit. Don’t remove too much material and lessen the tightness of the fit of the oil seal. I measured:
51.17mm diameter Cardone ‘new’ rough machining lead finish
51.06mm diameter old smooth finish
9F1341EF-0551-406C-B22B-EF52EFB9A3D6.jpeg
EEDE495B-1C73-43C2-8089-FC38C55C479D.jpeg
The original ones have a very smooth finish.
A06E618E-C59F-4F93-9FC6-680BD1E1029C.jpeg
Also seems like the Cardone brand have a lot of heat affected zone (from machining?) does anyone know if these are all new component axles or rebuilds?

Anyone know of an outfit that does quality rebuilds of OE axles?
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Petros
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Re: Cardone CV Axle troubles

Post by Petros »

there are a few other brands of new cv axles available, not rebuilt ones. I would stay away from Cardone if you can, too many quality control issues. the cv joint itself can have too much slop, allowing the new axles to click as if they were worn out, or they can be too tight so you can feel it grinding when you rotate it by hand. one brand new one I had the local NAPA store order for me (they could get it faster than mail order) felt like a file run over rough metal right out of the box. I opened it in the store to feel how smooth the joints were, the store owner agreed to return it.

all of the remanufactured ones are sloppy and have poor fit, I would not bother. only buy new ones if possible. it seems like they can be rebuilt properly, but I have not seen a good rebuilt CV axle in over 20 years.
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Re: Cardone CV Axle troubles

Post by simon84 »

I just installed a set of Cardone cv axles and had a heck of a time getting them in. Had to pound on them pretty hard and on first attempt they were not all the way in and the passenger side axle wore out my wheel bearing in 200km. It was causing a lateral oscillation with pressure between the trans and the wheel hub.
I'm not looking forward to taking them out when they wear out.
Driver: 87 Tercel SR5, white, 4ac, weber carb (aka the Tercedes)
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Re: Cardone CV Axle troubles

Post by dlb »

There was a time when there was only one brand of CV axles on Rock Auto that were not remanufactured -- I can't remember what brand that was but regardless, looking right now I see APWI, Trakmotive, and GSP all appear to be new axles as well. I had a problem with the Trakmotive axle I just installed in my 1991 Corolla wagon so they would not be my first choice but the point is that there are other options for new axles out there if Cardone is consistently putting out crappy products.
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Re: Cardone CV Axle troubles

Post by Toyotise »

I gave up on trying to modify the Cardone axles. TLDR: Just say no to Cardone; Roockauto will not except returns if you modify a part in any way shape or form. Ended up ordering a set of new manufactured ones from local NAPA; I will inspect in person before I make payment for them.

I tried using a tungsten points file and a finishing stone on the Cardone Axles taking a little material off at a time and test fitting. Spent about four hours attempting to modify one axle. Took the retaining rings off the end, but even with careful incremental modification could never get it to seat correctly, like the original axles do. I concluded the original manufacturing tolerances on the Cardone axles are too out of spec to get a good end product with hand modification:
OEM Axle shaft differential side measures 22.25mm O.D. 
Cardone axle shaft differential side measure 21.85 mm O.D. 
Top of splines of OEM measure 1.25 mm
Top of splines on Cardone axles measure 1.60mm

Add to the fact that the machining lead on the inner wheel seal-ing surfaces it’s so high and pronounced the only conclusion is that the finish on these is rubbish. They may have solid enough CV joints and actual axle shaft steel, but they’re ruined by the rush finishing on the splines and oil sealing surfaces.

Theoretically the top splines can be narrowed to get within tolerance. However the outer diameter is already under sized to start with. Which will leave your end product not fully mated with the female side, resulting in excessive play and excessive wear over time. Last thing these vehicles need to experience with high mileage.

I would highly advise against anyone attempting to make them fit by hammering them in, the stress of that interference fit with the differential likely won’t do anything good for longevity. Especially if you’re using it under an increased stress application like a lifted stance or increased engine power output.

I reached out to rock auto to see if there is any workable solution on their end. Even if I couldn’t get a refund (due to modification), the least they could do is increase their Quality Control inspections on the axles they received from Cardone. Basically they gave me a stone wall response. Their rationalization is that so few of them are returned for warranty issues that there must not be a problem. I tried to explain that old car enthusiasts are not unaccustomed to having finishing work needed on aftermarket parts. They rudely terminated communication. If anyone cares to read the details of the correspondence with them I am enclosing it here.

Typical big company customer service, they’ve got a policy and procedure that covers them for everything, and the hourly employee behind the desk doesn’t have any real authority to make influential changes. So they just kick it down the road. Granted they were only $60 axles and the adage is true: You do get what you pay for.

Perhaps if others were to also email and relate their experiences with Cardone axles to them they may do something about it.

An email address that will get you a live person is:
service@rockauto.com


Me:

Order# 177959658
Double checked. These are the part numbers I ordered, and received, boxes labeled as such. Yes. I own a 1986 Toyota Tercel 4wd. 
CARDONE 665001
CARDONE 665002
Fit is incorrect for parts received. Primary problem is spline size fitment. Top of splines are too wide. Shaft width is incorrect as well. Poor manufacturing quality control? Others report similar poor fitment of Cardone axles.
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=15416&p=113602&hili ... es#p113602

viewtopic.php?f=7&t=15007&p=110322&hili ... es#p110322

viewtopic.php?f=4&t=158&p=103999&hilit= ... es#p103999

Want to return for refund, or exchange in partial credit for the GSP brand axles ( GSP NCV69005, GSP NCV69006). Thank you.

OEM Axle shaft differential side measures 22.25mm O.D. 
Cardone axle shaft differential side measure 21.85 mm O.D. 

Top of splines of OEM measure 1.25 mm
Top of splines on Cardone axles measure 1.60mm


Response
Dear Mr. Cxxxxxx,
 
We’re sorry for the problem with your order. To receive a solution, please report the situation through our Order Status & Returns page. For further information, see our Help page or click the links below:
...the part didn't fit or I received the wrong part!
How do I find past orders?
How do I view an order?


Thank you,

Mitchell  
RockAuto Customer Service

RockAuto HELP
http://www.rockauto.com

Me:
Okay if you’re not able to help with that I will look into pursuing other options. The larger problem remains with the out of spec parts. I am not the first person to receive such from Cardone branded axles. They are out of spec and people could damage their vehicles by forcing them to fit when they simply are not in spec. I am done with “Car-done”. 


Response

Dear Mr. Cxxxxxx,

We would like to help you with this matter. However, we cannot do so until it has been reported through our Order Status & Returns page. [*Automated return form when you cannot explain a problem but simply check a multiple choice box*] If this does not give you the resolution you are looking for, please reach out to us again.


Me
To begin thank you for replying to my emails. I’ve worked many different aspects of customer service and I understand what it’s like. It’s a big company and you’re trying your best to do your part. I’m not looking to make life more difficult for you, I understand that your job is to answer the customer service emails, and direct customers through the specified company troubleshooting and return procedures. 

With that said I need to emphasize again there’s been a problem in the enthusiast community documented many many times now with these “cardone” CV axles. If you can’t provide assurances of solutions to the root of these problem then please pass this along to someone higher up who can. Before I initiate a return I want to know the following:

1) is RockAuto going to do some thing about the root cause of this issue or are they going to continue to carry parts that don’t even begin to meet the correct quality control standards?

2) Am I going to be able to get a refund for the parts because of the modification I proceeded with them to try and make them work on my vehicle, only upon finding out later that the manufacturing tolerances are not even remotely within spec?

When I first got the parts my initial response to their non-fitment was that the surface finish quality was poor (inexpensive axles, excessive machine lead, ie Poor quality finish during the manufacturing process) so I’m like OK Get what you pay for, $60 axles I can put a little elbow grease into this to try to make it work. So I took the initiative to polish off the machine markings to make the parts fit better. To spell it out clear as day I took a tungsten points file, a finishing stone, and proceeded to Remove material from the top of the splines, and polish the sloppy machine work off the output shaft side of the axles.  When that didn’t work I took measurements from the OEM stock axles vs the Cardone axles and got the following:

OEM Axle shaft differential side measures 22.25mm O.D. 
Cardone axle shaft differential side measure 21.85 mm O.D. 

Top of splines of OEM measure 1.25 mm
Top of splines on Cardone axles measure 1.60mm

I’m not trying to swindle any of you. 
I just want the right fitting parts for my vehicle. 
I don’t want other enthusiasts to have to keep continually rehashing this problem. 

If for some reason the modifications that I did to the parts in good faith, to try to get these parts to work on my vehicle cause them to be non-returnable it’s really not that big a deal to me. 

I’m a part of an online community of enthusiast for these vehicles that frequently use your parts website service, I just want to make sure it doesn’t keep happening to others in the future. 

I sincerely hope we can come to a workable solution, for everyone’s sake.



Response

Dear Eric,

I have checked the order history of both of the Cardone axles you have purchased. For Part # 66-5001 we have 90 orders and 3 warranty returns. For Part # 66-5002 we have had  94 order and 5 warranty returns. Our order history for these parts is over 4 years old. We do not see that these parts are historically a problem in regards to their fit or finish. If there was an issue and the parts had not been modified we would have been able to have you request a manufacturers warranty return. Unfortunately once a part has been modified or altered we cannot set up a return as the manufacturer will reject the return.

Our Return Policy explains:

If a part doesn't fit, don't try to "make it fit" and risk damaging the part, your car, or yourself! RockAuto is not responsible for any costs exceeding the cost of the part, and we will not accept returns of parts that have been installed or modified.


We’re sorry, but we are unable to accept your return. We sincerely apologize for any inconvenience this may cause. For further information, please see our Help pages or click the link below:

What is your return policy?
 

Thank you,

David



Me:
OK that’s what I need to know. Thanks for the information. Old car enthusiasts are not completely unaccustomed to getting aftermarket parts that don’t work perfectly out of the box. It’s life with cheap Chinese manufactured goods. It’s unfortunate that your warranty History on the items I received will not contribute to an accurate documentation of the issue. Many people force them to work (hammer them in). Others modify them heavy-handedly (grinders, dremels) thereby subjecting their cars to extra wear and tear from equipment that doesn’t interface the way engineers designed it to. 
 Examples:
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=15416&p=113602&hili ... es#p113602
 viewtopic.php?f=7&t=15007&p=110322&hili ... es#p110322
viewtopic.php?f=4&t=158&p=103999&hilit= ... es#p103999
 I will be documenting my experience with these “Car-done” axle shafts, and your company’s response on the automotive enthusiast forms that I frequent. It is the go to resource for these cars for which there is a cult following. You have some sort of advertising agreement with them…  Money comes and goes but reputation is of the utmost. 

The best solution would be for someone in the Rockauto quality control/ requisition department to take measurements and or look up the technical manufacturing specifications for the OE axle equipment and compare that to the Cardone replacement axle and decide if that’s really a part you want to continue providing to your customers. But that’s your job. 

I’m sorry I can’t get your assurances for a better resolution on the matter. 
Sincerely,
-Eric




Response:

[Final stonewall]

This is an automated message to let you know that your email could not be received because Ticket 100365810 has been closed. If you have additional questions, please use our Help pages. If you have a new order issue, please report it using our Order Status and Returns page.

Thank you,

RockAuto Customer Service

RockAuto HELP
http://www.rockauto.com



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Re: Cardone CV Axle troubles

Post by dlb »

I had a similar experience with Rockauto when trying to return the Trakmotive axle that got stuck in my 91 Corolla trans due to a faulty clip (the clip wound up getting jammed and getting the axle out was an monstrous feat, and the ring was left inside the trans in pieces which I did my best to remove with a magnet afterward). They offered exchange only as per policy, despite the fact I had already bought another axle locally because I needed it immediately, and despite the fact I obviously wouldn't want another Trakmotive axle. I was very frustrated.
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Re: Cardone CV Axle troubles

Post by Petros »

they will not accept a return for modified parts (understandable), nor for parts that have been installed? you would not know it did not fit if it was not installed. or if it was otherwise defective, you may not find that out until you install it, such as a defective CV joint.

the fact that Cardone is junk is not entirely Rockauto's fault, and all they can do is go based on returned parts history.

BTW, I have also bought new EMPI axles from RA for the Tercel. EMPI has been around a long time and used to have a good reputation. but I noticed these were made in china, and they wore out the CV joint in only about a year (quality factory CV axles would get about 80k to 100k miles or more). I also had an inner cv joint fail on the EMPI axle, which I have NEVER seen an inner joint fail before, it just broke. so Now the EMPI axles are off my list of acceptable replacement parts.
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Re: Cardone CV Axle troubles

Post by Toyotise »

So I got new manufactured axle shafts from my local NAPA. I measured them against the original ones and the spline width, depth, thickness, and taper match exactly. The inboard oil sealing surfaces going into the transmission are perfect. The oil sealing surfaces on the outboard joint going into the wheel hub are much better than the recent batch of Cardone axles. Took the snap rings off to test fit and the axles slid all the way in perfectly, no binding or sticking. Used a dab of grease to retain orientation of the snap ring with the gap facing downward and centered on the shaft as much as possible and final installation was perfect as well. Axles easily retained affirmatively in the differential with minimal play. NAPA is currently sourcing these direct brand new on an as-needed basis from:

Advanced Innovative Technology
1675 W Park Ave
Redlands, CA 92373
Customer Service (855) 271-9944

If you decide to go through NAPA to get drive axles I recommend you confirm which manufacturer they’re getting them from and if you have a choice. It will show on their side on the computer which manufacturer(s) they’re available from, and on the paper receipt they print you at the counter it will show you the manufacturer on the same line as the part number as well. The axles I got from this manufacturer were good for me. They come with a lifetime warranty through NAPA.

NAPA part number’s :
Passenger Side (shorter axle). 94-4124
Driver Side (longer axle). 94-4125
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Re: Cardone CV Axle troubles

Post by dlb »

Nice find, toyotise. How much were these?
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Re: Cardone CV Axle troubles

Post by NWMO »

Great find toyotise!! I may buy a set to have in the future as needed.

Chris
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Re: Cardone CV Axle troubles

Post by Toyotise »

They were about 75 bucks each (a little cheaper for the shorter one) and including the NAPA freight charge of $25 for each axle (your price mileage on that may vary less or more there depending on where you’re at). So about 100$ an axle.

I’ve not reached out to the manufacturer directly to see if they work direct to consumer, but that may be something to look into.
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Re: Cardone CV Axle troubles

Post by Neu »

I have to redo a leaky passenger CV and the same CV for me is $97 here in Portland.

All the ones on rockauto kind of scare me because they're really cheap, lol.
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Re: Cardone CV Axle troubles

Post by mungus »

Rockauto now has GBS CV axles on sale, does anyone have any experience with this brand? Thanks in advance for any input. Years ago, I bought a set of Cardone axles from Rockauto thinking it would be nice to have them sitting in the garage until some day when I needed them. From reading all the feedback here, I realize I just have a set of boat anchors.
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Re: Cardone CV Axle troubles

Post by NWMO »

mungus,

I don't know that they are necessarily THAT bad. I think I've used Cardone a couple of times, one time was ok and the other required more "love" than it should have, but I made it work. I wouldn't pitch them, they might be fine, you just don't know until it's time.

Chris
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Re: Cardone CV Axle troubles

Post by mungus »

Thanks Chris!
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