Barto BC Lift Questions Are you Happy?!?

General discussion about our beloved Tercel 4WD cars
vwrobus
Newbie
Posts: 19
Joined: Thu Jul 02, 2009 10:10 pm
My tercel:: 1984 tercel 4wd SR5 wagon

Barto BC Lift Questions Are you Happy?!?

Post by vwrobus »

For starters, I have used the "search" button..... a lot!!

How has the Barto BC Lift worked out for you all? (Camery coils front, pathfinder in back. NO cutting boards!!!)
1) Happy?
2) How much lift did you end up getting?
3) Did you change tire size? If so, to what size? Happy?
4) Is your drive train holding up as usual?

My overall goal is a stiffer suspension to carry 4 DH bikes(160 pounds in bikes!) on a 2" receiver custom built rear bumper/rack AND not bottom out!

Wish there was a Barto BC lift section... As it is quite confusing as of now...! I want to post my notes as how to preform the lift as others have done, but I feel that would NOT answer and only confuse others. I am not qualified and would like to hear the Tercel Yodas speak up on this silly subject

Braap
User avatar
dlb
Highest Ranking Member
Posts: 7305
Joined: Mon Jul 06, 2009 9:03 pm
My tercel:: '87 sr5, '83 dlx parts car
Location: bc, canada

Re: Barto BC Lift Questions Are you Happy?!?

Post by dlb »

hi braap. i was happy with the rear barto lift but not with the front. with the front barto lift, the inserts would top out when hitting speed bumps and pot holes at anything more than a crawl. synthdesign came up with a front lift that he really likes and has reported no problems with. i mention it in #9 of the FAQ, which is in the 'general' section:

"the other front lift which forum member synthdesign has come up with is strut springs from a corolla all-trac and AW11 MR2 strut inserts. synth took me for a ride in his car with this lift and it felt great. he said it felt too stiff for the first few weeks but then seemed to settle in.

for the rear, most people have gone with springs from a nissan pathfinder and shocks from an 1980 ford thunderbird. you must delete the rear swar and rearmost park brake cable mounts for this lift."
User avatar
Petros
Highest Ranking Member
Posts: 11930
Joined: Sun Jan 28, 2007 6:31 pm
My tercel:: '84 Tercel4wd w/extensive mods
Location: Arlington WA USA

Re: Barto BC Lift Questions Are you Happy?!?

Post by Petros »

I have not tried the Barto lift, nor do I intend to. I have a bit of experience with setting up racing suspensions and the Barto lift has a few mistakes in it.

The rear pathfinder springs add about 3 inches of height and the springs are considerably higher rate (more stiff), there does not seem to be much problem with any angles or clearance, though it is suggested you loosen all the bolts on the links with rubber parts and put them back into a more neutral position for the new ride height. The rubber bushing works by flexing (there is no relative movement between the parts like there would be with a solid bearing), and it flexes both up and down. when it was set at the factory the flex was set for the stock ride height. this will make the bushings last longer.

The problem that I see is the Camry front spring, it is actually softer (lower rate) than the stock Tercel spring, and it is longer, so it raises the ride height about 2.5 to 3 inches. there are several problems with this, going softer springs in the front and stiffer in the rear will make the car handling very squirly I think, lots of severe oversteer. the CG will also be raised but that can not be helped if you want to raise the car, but it will make the oversteer even more difficult to control. The other is that much lift puts the CV joint at a high angle and will cause them to fail fast, and the strut will be at the top of its travel so there will be little to no rebound. the piston strike the top seal and cause the strut to fail very rapidly. One list member, Synth, put in new struts and cv axles when he did the Barto lift, and had to replace both the CV axles and the struts withing 3 to 4 months of street driving.

I would recommend the front springs out of a '88-92 Celica GTS or All-trac corolla (they both use the same front strut), they are higher rate and will not raise the front of the car as much (about 1-1.5 in), which should be okay on the cv joints and the struts. these springs should better match the stiffer rear springs as well. If you really want the good set up, get the whole strut for the celica GTS or All-trac, it has more travel than the Tercel strut and it is the same height, and it has a larger piston dia (about 70 percent bigger), and if you swap the top mount, it should bolt into the Tercel. You either have to drill the bolt holes on the steering knukle out from 8mm to 10mm bolt shank accept the Celica strut, or use spacer washers (they make hat shaped washers to allow you go down from 10 to 8 mm bolts), the lower mounting bolts line-up, but are a different dia. I want eventually to do this on my daily driver, when I put some pathfinder springs on the rear. I think Snyth is now using the Celica front spring in the Tercel strut, with the pathfinder rear springs. I have not heard that he had any problems with the cv joints or struts with this set up. Also, he went to polyurethane front donut bushings where the sway bar ends attach to the lower control arm.

The best tire/wheel set up (if using the lift or not) is to switch from the 13" flexy steel wheels to 14" allow wheels with 185/60 tires, I have 195/65x14 Michaeline tires on 14" alloys, and the clearance is close up front when bottomed (sometimes get a slight scrape, I just have to adjust the inner fender lip). this will make the handling and braking more responsive and precise, and not affect the speedo since the rolling dia is the same. Several members have used 15" wheels with even lower profile tires, but these do not perform well on wet or snowy roads, and the tires cost a lot more than the 60 series tires.

When I install the Celica GTS springs and struts on mine, I will also use the MR2 upper mount, the same but about 14mm less height, and I also intend to chop the rear pathfinder springs so I will not have as much lift in the rear. cutting the spring also will make it a little stiffer (fewer coils makes the spring more stiff). Hopefully this will only raise my car about .75-1" front and rear and make the ride more solid. But I have not tried it yet. so if you do this you will be on your own.
'87 Tercel 4wd SR5 (current engine swap project)
'84 Tercel 4wd (daily driver, with on going mods)
'92 Mazda MPV 4wd (wife's daily driver)
'85 Tercel 4wd DLX auto(daughter's daily driver)
'01 Honda Civic (other daughter's daily driver)
vwrobus
Newbie
Posts: 19
Joined: Thu Jul 02, 2009 10:10 pm
My tercel:: 1984 tercel 4wd SR5 wagon

Re: Barto BC Lift Questions Are you Happy?!?

Post by vwrobus »

Thank you for the quick reply....

I have the same thoughts on a "big Barto BC Lift" for my little Tercel. I just want a little more, not much, (just to hold close to 200 pounds of bikes on a rear rack, not to see the cool/remote places Barto got to) it's my turn the key and go car in snow and DH mountain bike shuttle car ( 30 + mpg!). My 1970 VW bus got crunched during a left hand turn and I need a vehicle capable of the bus off-road and my 1984 Tercel with modifications is going to fit the bill until the bus is back on the road.

I will be gathering parts per Petros recommendation from the local junkyards when they are there/on sale and give it a go. Thanks for your knowledge! I will be also looking for some 14" Escort alloy rims and summer tires.

Patherfinder springs cut down to what height?!? Didn't someone get 2.75" lift from stock springs? (Synth) Am I wrong or will just a few inches less of coil, NOT height make the lift just 1" or so?

A wise man told me to measure twice and cut once.

Braap,
Vwrobus
User avatar
Petros
Highest Ranking Member
Posts: 11930
Joined: Sun Jan 28, 2007 6:31 pm
My tercel:: '84 Tercel4wd w/extensive mods
Location: Arlington WA USA

Re: Barto BC Lift Questions Are you Happy?!?

Post by Petros »

here is the spring rate formula:

Image

rearranged to get the rate R= GD^4/*nD^3

R is spring rate in Lb/in
d is dia or the wire
D is the dia of the coil
n is number of coils
G is tortional moduls for steel is 11.5x10^6

what you have to do is calculate the spring rate for both stock and the Pathfinder spring, measure the installed height of the stock spring, remove it and measure its free length. from that you can determine how much weight is on the rear spring. with that information you have to find the installed length of the Pathfinder spring. the difference from the stock installed height will be your lift. If you want less lift you have to calculated the new R with one less coil and the shorter free length, and again calculate the installed hight. And so fourth until you get the lift you want.

That was how I was going to determine how much to cut off to get only 1/2-3/4" of rear lift.

As you can see less coils will make the spring have a larger rate.
'87 Tercel 4wd SR5 (current engine swap project)
'84 Tercel 4wd (daily driver, with on going mods)
'92 Mazda MPV 4wd (wife's daily driver)
'85 Tercel 4wd DLX auto(daughter's daily driver)
'01 Honda Civic (other daughter's daily driver)
vwrobus
Newbie
Posts: 19
Joined: Thu Jul 02, 2009 10:10 pm
My tercel:: 1984 tercel 4wd SR5 wagon

Re: Barto BC Lift Questions Are you Happy?!?

Post by vwrobus »

Thank you for the great information, Petros! It looks like you have done quite a bunch of research into this matter.... When will you be preforming this lift for yourself? Do you plan on lifting the front at the same time as well? Or in a two part operation, first with the rear (in and out, cut, then in and out, cut, then done, hopefully) and then the front? What are your motives for the lift? 4x4? Load capacity? Not bottoming out with four people in the car? Etc?

What about starting a section on lifting/ modifications to suspension section for the Tercel?
teranfirbt
Highest Ranking Member
Posts: 519
Joined: Mon Mar 30, 2009 12:58 am
My tercel:: '86 SR5 4WD, 5AFE, lifted rear, 195/70/14 tires
Location: Seattle, WA

Re: Barto BC Lift Questions Are you Happy?!?

Post by teranfirbt »

On mine I ended up with Pathfinder springs in the rear and stock A/C springs in the front with no A/C. IMO this is about as high as I'll go and ended up with a pretty even fender gap. In the near future I'll be getting 14" rims and some 185/60/14 tires to fill out the fenders a little more and make it look less awkward...

An interesting affect is that the rear end is stiffer to the point where the handling is pretty neutral, I can throw the car into corners and it'll actually want to rotate rather than plow through. It also rolls a lot which is fun :P
Image
User avatar
rer233
Highest Ranking Member
Posts: 1013
Joined: Sat Jan 01, 2011 1:49 pm
My tercel:: Multiple

Re: Barto BC Lift Questions Are you Happy?!?

Post by rer233 »

185/70-14 also fit without rubbing (with stock suspension)- throws the odo off by about 7% with the higher profile.
if it aint there, there's a good chance it won't break!
83 SR5 Silver/Blue (Snowmobile/work beater)-totaled but drivable
85 SR5 Blue
88 SR5 White (the 'good' one)-not anymore-totaled
87 fwd silver wagon a/t
87 4wd dx Cream (a/t- not anymore- now m/t)
User avatar
Petros
Highest Ranking Member
Posts: 11930
Joined: Sun Jan 28, 2007 6:31 pm
My tercel:: '84 Tercel4wd w/extensive mods
Location: Arlington WA USA

Re: Barto BC Lift Questions Are you Happy?!?

Post by Petros »

I want to firm up the ride, and raise it just a bit to improve under car clearance. I do not want to affect hwy economy nor raise the CG by raising it too much. I do not like a soft ride in my cars, firming it up should improve handling, and prevent bottoming when I have it loaded.

I do not know when I will be doing the swap, the car I am planning on do it to is in the garage waiting for a rebuilt 4age engine, which I have not startged yet (but the engine is at least on the engine stand). I do not have time for the next 3 months to even consider working on it, perhaps this winter. I have another project car ahead of it waiting for a new trans and 4age engine to get done first.
'87 Tercel 4wd SR5 (current engine swap project)
'84 Tercel 4wd (daily driver, with on going mods)
'92 Mazda MPV 4wd (wife's daily driver)
'85 Tercel 4wd DLX auto(daughter's daily driver)
'01 Honda Civic (other daughter's daily driver)
vwrobus
Newbie
Posts: 19
Joined: Thu Jul 02, 2009 10:10 pm
My tercel:: 1984 tercel 4wd SR5 wagon

Re: Barto BC Lift Questions Are you Happy?!?

Post by vwrobus »

Thank you for the information. I think I will cool my jets and reconsider the Barto BC Lift. I feel the same way as Petro's as to what my needs (and not wants) are for this old trustworthy rig. I will start to gather parts from the local pick'n'pull this summer and try to preform my "lift" in the fall before the snow comes.

I can't wait to hear about your 4age swap!!! I have been following that thread for a long time and would like to do this to my Tercel when the time comes to replace the engine...
User avatar
dlb
Highest Ranking Member
Posts: 7305
Joined: Mon Jul 06, 2009 9:03 pm
My tercel:: '87 sr5, '83 dlx parts car
Location: bc, canada

Re: Barto BC Lift Questions Are you Happy?!?

Post by dlb »

a few other members have done the 4age swap, some with more success than others. i think larry's swap has been the most successful, and was well documented in this thread.

viewtopic.php?f=8&t=7576
SirNik83
Top Notch Member
Posts: 237
Joined: Wed Jul 13, 2005 5:48 pm
My tercel:: 1983 SR5 4WD, Custom Paint Job, MR2 Wheels, Pistol Grip Shifter
Location: Sacramento CA or Kelseyville CA

Re: Barto BC Lift Questions Are you Happy?!?

Post by SirNik83 »

Petros wrote: I would recommend the front springs out of a '88-92 Celica GTS or All-trac corolla (they both use the same front strut), they are higher rate and will not raise the front of the car as much (about 1-1.5 in), which should be okay on the cv joints and the struts. these springs should better match the stiffer rear springs as well. If you really want the good set up, get the whole strut for the celica GTS or All-trac, it has more travel than the Tercel strut and it is the same height, and it has a larger piston dia (about 70 percent bigger), and if you swap the top mount, it should bolt into the Tercel. You either have to drill the bolt holes on the steering knukle out from 8mm to 10mm bolt shank accept the Celica strut, or use spacer washers (they make hat shaped washers to allow you go down from 10 to 8 mm bolts), the lower mounting bolts line-up, but are a different dia.
I read this post some time back and have been wanting to build the front struts described here by Petros.
Yesterday I took the Tercel on a mini adventrue and we went to San Jose CA in order to take advantage of the half sale at Pick'n'Pull. I got myself a set of struts from a Corolla All-Trac and a set from an 88 Mr2. Today I bought myself the strut compressor tool from Harbor Freight. When I picked it up I was kind of scared. I've used the HF compressor before on my moms Camery, in like 2003, I think the tool cost $25 or so. Today, the same tool cost $13.99.... No tool that is ment to hold a force that could possibly mame you should cost that little... but what the heck "I'm on VACATION!"
So back home I went and preceded to use the 13.99 compressor to take apart the MR2 struts. Cakewalk! laid out all the parts. Then moved on to the Corolla struts. This is when it got a little scary. When I was in college I pulled the spring from my Mercedes with a Snap-On compressor only to have the compressor let go and nearly take out my best friends knee cap. So I've been scared (fear of god) of springs ever since. But I'm here to report that the $13.99 compressor was a trooper. Took apart the more hefty springs on the carolla struts no preoblem. I then replaced the strut inserts with new KYB units from NAPA, and rebuilt the struts with the tops to the MR2 struts as described by Petros. All in all it was a pretty good day. and I didn't loose a knee cap!

Here are my newly built Petros-struts!
Image

The strut tops I got from the 88 will require me to drill at 4th hole in the Tercel. But this seems like a good idea to me, with the larger strut and all. I'll also have to drill out the holes on the knuckel as discribed by Petros. I ordered a metric drill index with .5mm increments from ebay.uk. so when that shows up I'll install the struts.
My first car was a Tercel, and I'm still driving a Tercel, some people say I need an Intervention.
User avatar
Petros
Highest Ranking Member
Posts: 11930
Joined: Sun Jan 28, 2007 6:31 pm
My tercel:: '84 Tercel4wd w/extensive mods
Location: Arlington WA USA

Re: Barto BC Lift Questions Are you Happy?!?

Post by Petros »

you can use either the Tercel top mount, or an MR2 front strut top mount without having to drill holes in the strut tower (same bolt pattern, the MR2 top mount is about 12mm less height).

I have also used the inexpensive harbor freight spring compressors, I put it in a big vise and make sure the "loaded" driection is not pointing at anything important, or at me! Washed the threaded part with solvent and put fresh molley grease on it each time I use them, so far so good. I have heard the cheap ones will grind away their threads pretty fast, so putting lots of molly grease on them seems to be the think they need.
'87 Tercel 4wd SR5 (current engine swap project)
'84 Tercel 4wd (daily driver, with on going mods)
'92 Mazda MPV 4wd (wife's daily driver)
'85 Tercel 4wd DLX auto(daughter's daily driver)
'01 Honda Civic (other daughter's daily driver)
4doorVIP
Top Notch Member
Posts: 289
Joined: Sun Aug 29, 2010 9:59 am
My tercel:: 1988 SR5 Wagon
Location: Vancouver Island

Re: Barto BC Lift Questions Are you Happy?!?

Post by 4doorVIP »

Petros wrote:you can use either the Tercel top mount, or an MR2 front strut top mount without having to drill holes in the strut tower (same bolt pattern, the MR2 top mount is about 12mm less height).

I have also used the inexpensive harbor freight spring compressors, I put it in a big vise and make sure the "loaded" driection is not pointing at anything important, or at me! Washed the threaded part with solvent and put fresh molley grease on it each time I use them, so far so good. I have heard the cheap ones will grind away their threads pretty fast, so putting lots of molly grease on them seems to be the think they need.
thanks for the info Petros
I just found out one of my rear struts is blown an am piecing together a full suspension over hall in the near future.
Do you recommendations for rear struts for your set up?


just wondering where you guys are sourcing bushing kits for these cars as well, pretty much most of mine need to be services
2JZGTE-powered Tercel SR5
User avatar
ARCHINSTL
Goldie Forever
Posts: 6369
Joined: Sat Apr 30, 2005 1:52 pm
My tercel:: Goldie is a 1986 SR5 attualmente con Weber/also owned the first T4WD in STL in late '82
Location: Kirkwood, a 'burb of St. Louis

Re: Barto BC Lift Questions Are you Happy?!?

Post by ARCHINSTL »

I have an OE bushing list with part numbers in the Part Numbers - OE and Aftermarket Forum: See https://tercel4wd.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=16&t=6444
Incidentally, you do mean rear shocks and not rear struts, right?
Tom M.
T4WD augury?
"Oh, do not ask, 'What is it?' Let us go and make our visit."
T.S. Eliot - "The Love Song of J. Alfred Prufrock"
"Now and then we had a hope that, if we lived and were good, God would permit us to be pirates."
Mark Twain
Post Reply