Diesel swap and restoration progress

General discussion about our beloved Tercel 4WD cars
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dlb
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Re: Diesel swap and restoration progress

Post by dlb » Mon Feb 04, 2013 8:47 am

that's great news, CRT. after so many setbacks with the shipping of the engines, it's cool that you finally got a break on it. looking forward to more progress updates.

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Petros
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My tercel:: '84 Tercel4wd w/extensive mods
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Re: Diesel swap and restoration progress

Post by Petros » Mon Feb 04, 2013 2:41 pm

I am not sure I understand why the Diesel starter does not fit, are you using a different flywheel? be careful about any alternative set-up, it will be difficult to get it to work reliable without a lot of custom parts and experimenting. It is always better to find a way to adapt a factory starter, even if you have to use the stock Tercel starter, it will be more reliable and cheaper than likely anything you can fabricate. The stock starter will be somewhat overloaded and will wear out faster than when using it on a 3a engine, but they are tough and durable starters that should still make a diesel engine start up. Consider that a large company with an army of engineers and techs have developed the stater for use on both of those engines, how do you think you can come up with something even half as good by tinkering in your garage? I am a engineer that has worked in the automotive field and I would not attempt it.

So I suggest save yourself a lot of trouble and see if there is anyway to make a factory starter work, preferably the one that comes on the diesel, or the stock 3a starter. You also might consider seeing what other toyota starters might be able to adapt to your installation.
'87 Tercel 4wd SR5 (current engine swap project)
'84 Tercel 4wd (daily driver, with on going mods)
'92 Mazda MPV 4wd (wife's daily driver)
'85 Tercel 4wd DLX auto(daughter's daily driver)
'01 Honda Civic (other daughter's daily driver)

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CathodeRayTube
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My tercel:: 1985 4x4 Automatic - restored
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Re: Diesel swap and restoration progress

Post by CathodeRayTube » Mon Feb 04, 2013 4:22 pm

Making either factory starter work will require a lot more fabrication than simply adding a pulley and a bracket for a large belt driven motor/alternator. It Would require modifying the bell housing, fabrication of an adapter plate, or both. All that is required to make the diesel bolt to the tercels tranny, not worrying about the starting function, is to make the diesel flywheel slightly smaller. then everything should bolt together without issue.

The 3As flywheel bolt holes are closer together, and will not bolt to the diesel engine, unless they were to be filled and re drilled. Both however are 6 bolt flywheels, and use the same size/type of bolts. I am pretty confident in my design abilities, as well as the ability of both myself and the local machine shop to fabricate anything necessary.

The diesel starters bolt holes are a little farther apart than the 3As, and the angle is different. As well as the courser teeth on the both the diesels starter and flywheel ring gear.
86 T4 DX 4x4 - Diesel Swap project
85 T4 DX 4x4 Automatic
83 T4 SR5 - junker/parts
94 4Runner V6
86 Mercury Grand Marquis
88 Lincoln Town Car
90 Yugo GV+
85 F250 dually 6.9 turbo diesel
81 VW Rabbit Turbo diesel project

TURTCEL
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My tercel:: 1985 4WD SR5 Wagon, Brown (TURTCEL)
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Re: Diesel swap and restoration progress

Post by TURTCEL » Tue Feb 05, 2013 11:58 pm

CathodeRayTube wrote: I am pretty confident in my design abilities, as well as the ability of both myself and the local machine shop to fabricate anything necessary.

Sounds like you have the means to create some pretty cool custom stuff. It is nice to have a local machine that is able to help fab up some things for you. My friend works at a local machine shop where I live and it is a sweet deal having him there. Can fix or build just about anything.

Keep us posted on this custom starting system...I am interested to see what you can come up with. Pics when progress starts please.

We only succeed if we try, and we can also never fail if we never try. Give it a shot and see what happens. The coolest stuff can be the one off's.

Peace
1985 Tercel 4wd SR5 Wagon, WEBER Carb, Brown (TURTCEL)
1988 Corolla DLX All-Trac Wagon, 4 speed AT, Silver (Wife's new car)
1993 Ford Escort Wagon LX, 5 Speed, Smurf Blue (Smurfette)...selling

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CathodeRayTube
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My tercel:: 1985 4x4 Automatic - restored
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Re: Diesel swap and restoration progress

Post by CathodeRayTube » Wed Feb 06, 2013 2:34 am

IM still brainstorming on it. I know it will be less fabrication to do a belt-starter, but possibly more expensive if you factor in batteries and other electronics...so the adapter plate may still be better...il have to take some more fine measurements and look over everything again. After some more thought, welding & redrilling the holes on the 3A flywheel may be feasible...but i think id rather just put the extra effort into it and use the heavier diesel flywheel and starter if possible...money isnt even that great of a concern at this point...the computer repair business has been good to me lately...its time, space and motivation i keep struggling with...
86 T4 DX 4x4 - Diesel Swap project
85 T4 DX 4x4 Automatic
83 T4 SR5 - junker/parts
94 4Runner V6
86 Mercury Grand Marquis
88 Lincoln Town Car
90 Yugo GV+
85 F250 dually 6.9 turbo diesel
81 VW Rabbit Turbo diesel project

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Petros
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My tercel:: '84 Tercel4wd w/extensive mods
Location: Arlington WA USA

Re: Diesel swap and restoration progress

Post by Petros » Wed Feb 06, 2013 12:24 pm

you might see if putting the 3a flywheel ring gear on the Diesel flywheel is a possibility, that should allow you to mount the 3a starter. welding up the holes in 3a flywheel is also feesable but very costly if done properly, they have to heat the flywheel in an oven up to about 1000 deg (glowing red hot) and than weld up the holes. Than it gets machined to match the new crank, and you will be stuck with the small 3a clutch. I suspect it would be much easier to just have the diesel flywheel cut so it will take the 3a ring gear. and there is the adapter plate option as well.
'87 Tercel 4wd SR5 (current engine swap project)
'84 Tercel 4wd (daily driver, with on going mods)
'92 Mazda MPV 4wd (wife's daily driver)
'85 Tercel 4wd DLX auto(daughter's daily driver)
'01 Honda Civic (other daughter's daily driver)

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CathodeRayTube
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My tercel:: 1985 4x4 Automatic - restored
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Re: Diesel swap and restoration progress

Post by CathodeRayTube » Wed Jun 05, 2013 8:03 pm

Allright. Today i took both flywheels to the machine shop. I decided that for now, plan A is just going to be to drill new holes in the stock 3A flywheel so that it will mate to the diesel crank...leaving the original 3A holes unfilled & untouched, avoiding the heating/brittleness/welding issues...and assuming it will hold up. If it doesn't, it doesn't. This will allow for the stock starter to be used, and no adapter plate. The larger diesel clutch itself actually fits inside the 3As pressure plate and has the same splines as the 3A,s so il be using it. I will need to do something with the oil pan, a custom one will be in order or possibly an adapter bracket to make the 3A pan work with the diesel...that should be simple with my welding skills...so stay tuned, hopefully il be able to do a test start of the engine with the trans mounted to it.

Plan B or C will be to either attempt having the diesel flywheel lathed down and the 3As ring gear fitted to it as suggested, or go with the alternative belt-starter setup...not sure which plan will be B or C...well just have to see if the flywheel flys apart or if the 3A starter wont crank the engine sufficiently, or if the engine vibrates like crazy with the smaller flywheel on it with plan A...

PS, i asked the machine shop about heating the flywheel in an oven as mentioned...they dont have the facilities for it. Would this be something i could possibly do myself? me/my father have wanted to build a forge for years now...heat it up and use either a MIG welder or stick welder? I have a nice MIG now...was going to experiment with stick welding with car batteries...
86 T4 DX 4x4 - Diesel Swap project
85 T4 DX 4x4 Automatic
83 T4 SR5 - junker/parts
94 4Runner V6
86 Mercury Grand Marquis
88 Lincoln Town Car
90 Yugo GV+
85 F250 dually 6.9 turbo diesel
81 VW Rabbit Turbo diesel project

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Petros
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My tercel:: '84 Tercel4wd w/extensive mods
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Re: Diesel swap and restoration progress

Post by Petros » Thu Jun 06, 2013 2:49 pm

no need for anything high tech to heat a flywheel. the shop I took it to that specializes in welding cast iron took some fire bricks and stacked them up around the flywheel and fed the burner of a torch between the bricks. I think they capped it off with a chunk of sheet steel. they let it sit there and heat the flywheel until it was a fairly even dull red (about 1000-1100) degrees). they then took the sheet steel off the top an started filling the holes with weld. after the welding was done they allowed it to heat soak for another 15-20 min to normalized the weld, than let it air cool. Used a lot of gas to heat it, but it was not high tech at all.
'87 Tercel 4wd SR5 (current engine swap project)
'84 Tercel 4wd (daily driver, with on going mods)
'92 Mazda MPV 4wd (wife's daily driver)
'85 Tercel 4wd DLX auto(daughter's daily driver)
'01 Honda Civic (other daughter's daily driver)

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CathodeRayTube
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Joined: Mon Aug 04, 2008 8:23 pm
My tercel:: 1985 4x4 Automatic - restored
Location: Gettysburg Pennsylvania

Re: Diesel swap and restoration progress

Post by CathodeRayTube » Fri Nov 23, 2018 10:25 am

This has largely been Hibernating for 5 years...my last major efforts were in 2013...2014 i drove out to and attempted living in CA...2015 i went truck driving...16-now iv been dealing with other life BS, parents divorcing, jobs, moving twice etc...but the DT4 is still hanging out in the barn where i left off. Now that im re settling on my mothers farm and planning to stay put, i am only now beginning to re setup my garage and workspace. DanT will be coming on Monday to harvest Struts off my Red parts car, and im sure we will be talking cars a lot. Im considering Downsizing the Tercels (i have about 12 cars now, including 3 Tercels). The Diesel project im thinking will come back to the front-burner, and im entertaining the idea of selling the 85 gas/Automatic one, once i go over it and get it in top shape...i repainted it and it looks good, but has been sitting around with rusted brake/fuel lines for more than a year also.
86 T4 DX 4x4 - Diesel Swap project
85 T4 DX 4x4 Automatic
83 T4 SR5 - junker/parts
94 4Runner V6
86 Mercury Grand Marquis
88 Lincoln Town Car
90 Yugo GV+
85 F250 dually 6.9 turbo diesel
81 VW Rabbit Turbo diesel project

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LowBuckCanuck
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My tercel:: 1986 DLX 4wd Wagon "Jenny"

Re: Diesel swap and restoration progress

Post by LowBuckCanuck » Sat Nov 24, 2018 8:19 pm

Looking forward to this... make sure to post lots of pictures!

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