POWER NOT THE ANSWER

[toughtercel]

hi , i am new in the memeber of tercel club does'nt mean i new driver , any way i was research their comment and pictures and one thing it get me , some off guys want MORE POWER by swapping engine like A4GE motor or others diffent motor , well " japanese tech" made a good choose motor that are 3 A-C and 4 A-C motor have the LOWEST RPM at HIGHEST MAX TORQUE ( which mean driving on steep hill at EL gear noo problem , i.ve done lots off-roading , rocks, dirt and snow to ) drive normal ,no speeding or you'll lose your grip , i ve learn alot from my father in the past which he used to own 69 LAND ROVER , it was in line 6 cyl .motor that take maxuim torque at 1,500 RPM (VERY LOW) , those LAND ROVER from 50's to early 70's are tought till america trucks with lots of power causing sank in the ground too much power , so next time i will video , ciao

[Neu]

i....im not sure what you said.

[takza]

What he said was to go with higher torque at lower rpms...which is why a small diesel would be ideal in these cars. In the real world of off road driving it is CRAWLING torque that counts...unless you are running the Baja 500.

[HomeSkool]

I agree that more power is not the option when 4x4 is concerned. More power will break parts ect. And in these cars I don't imagine it would take much more power to do damage. That said my 4x4 gear ratio is messed up so I'm putting in a A4GE from a Corolla I purchased. But I'm also changin' the transmission and rear axle and makin myself a new drive shaft. I'll make it rear wheel drive only. If I was keeping or trying to repair the 4x4 option I would not be swapping engines. I'd be interested on anyones comment on this topic.

[Petros]

You should get out more and try more vehicles. The stock engine might be fine for doing nothing but slow crawling off-road with light loads, but for even normal street driving 62 hp is dangerously too low. When I have even one adult passenger it my Tercel, or my two children in the back, I can not safely pull out into heavy traffic. An underpowered car in heavy traffic is as much a hazard as are the wimpy Tercel brakes. I need a decent car for both hwy driving and off road/deep snow and mud. I use my 4wd daily (as I did today when we got another 6 inches of snow this morning), as well was drive at hwy speeds on dry road with other traffic. My car MUST have BOTH good off-road capably, AND excellent hwy driving ability, plus good reliability and economy. That is why I am doing the swap.

As for off road, I have run out of power in deep mud and snow, also fried the clutch more than once in mud and snow. This car is too heavy and has way more room and capacity that both the stock engine and brakes can handle, in my experiacned and professional opinion. This not a mere matter of wanting to street race or a desire for power, but a simple fact of building a real driver's car. I have pushed the 3ac way beyond it capacity and have only added about 20 hp, which I can live with except I have to replace the head gasket about once a year. I decided I like the car enough to keep it, and dong an engine swap is necessary to get the power, economy and reliable this car should have. The carburetor in this car is obsolete and suffers from drivablity issues, EFI delivers both more power and better economy, and better reliability, so why stick with the underpowered and obsolete 3ac?

As durable and well designed as most Toyotas are, they really blew it on the Tercel 4wd. It is such a shame too, they could have put in the 4ac, or even the 4afe, which both have excellent low end torque are reliable and economical. Toyota was trying to compete with the shitty early Subarus (not reliable at all), and used the same engine, suspension and brakes as on the much lighter Tercel 2wd hatch back (which is a totally unremarkable econo-box) to save money. Toyota had better brakes and better engines in their inventory of standard parts, they could have had one of the best 4wd cars built. Instead we got a half-assed econo-box 4wd. It such contrast to all of the other excellent cars and trucks that Toyota produced, and a shame too.

I say this as someone who as worked as both a mechanic, and a automotive engineer (BSME in '82), and have driven over 1 million miles both on and off-road since I was 16, including in compatition. I have owned, and still own a number of 4wd and AWD cars and trucks. Even with its short comings the Tercel 4wd is the one I enjoy driving most of any car I have owned, it just needs to be brought up to date to make it even better.

[shogun]

i think more power makes the car more intresting, i do most of my driving in the street and roads, but any more power is allways wellcome

[hberdan]

As durable and well designed as most Toyotas are, they really blew it on the Tercel 4wd.

Yes, sadly, I agree. This same 4x4 idea with a little bigger engine and a stronger tranny would've been perfect. But Toyota had no idea if it would even sell. We are lucky to have the little buggies at all, even with their faults.
I drove one or another Tercel wagon daily for over 12 years, in traffic, in the snow, on freeways, climbing on mountain dirt roads, but not off-road per se. And it is a great little car for what it is.
Could it be better? You bet. I guess I'd get a Toyota 4x4 truck if I was really doing a lot of off-road stuff; better clearance, more power, a real transfer case, etc. I'd get at least a Camry if I wanted more power on the highway.
I think the car compares pretty favorably to other Japanese econoboxes from the 70s and 80s. Plus it has a nice snow capability for those 9" days. If it (the 4x4 wagon) were still in Toyota's line I'll bet it would've been improved dramatically, just like the Subarus were over time. But it appears that Toyota lost interest in the car completely, early on, especially as their 4-Runner sales skyrocketed, gas prices stayed low, and folks wanted to buy better equipped sedans. Camry sales are still pretty good. SUV sales were good until recently.
OTOH, if the car had been kept in the line, if Toyota had perfected their AWD, maybe we would be seeing a good solid competitor to Subaru Foresters and wagons, with a better tranny, a bigger engine, and MORE CUPHOLDERS. Instead, Toyota has nothing except what, the Matrix? yuck.

[takza]

Who doesn't want more power...as in...who doesn't want a monkey? With around 100 HP...the car would be fairly fast...but would get less mpg. With a little dist advance...the car is drivable...and if you use some RPMs it will keep up in traffic...though again...mpg suffers.

I have the equiv of the toyota 4x4 PU...bigger less maneuverable...30% less mpg. Does better off road on the bumps.

What people on this forum should think about is what happens in the future as pollution becomes a more serious issue? Will they still allow old cars on the road?

Energy wise...things are going to change. Gas will likely go above $2 and never look back...and when the world economy picks up again...and there is a carbon tax...look out.

[Typrus]

Hmmmm... If Toyota failed on the t4wd I'll go tell my Camry it has no reason to live. Being less than failed would suck for sure. However getting up to 120MPH on roads where the Silver wouldn't have made it past 90MPH is fun. Maybe I just had a freak Tercel that ran better than anyone elses, thus making me like it more? I never had a challenge keeping the speedo pegged all the way from Fort Collins to Colorado Springs if I so desired and was feeling daring. And thats with a 220k mile 3AC with no vacuum advance, as I found I was lacking only after I parked it. Throw in one other person and that became 85MPH, A load of people and I was stuck cruising 75-80mph.
Improvements? For sure. Failure? Hell no.
I do agree it could have used a Celica braking system and a Corolla drivetrain, or heck, even a 22R would have made this a formidable creature. But the pros outweigh the cons. Or else why the hell would any of us still be here?
I agree that a little tenacious VW diesel would make these cars massively enjoyable, as opposed to highly enjoyable. Heh.

[gatemaster]

My wife has a 08 Hyndaui sonata 4 cyl. with 162hp and 164 lb torque. My son's 98 Saab 900 turbo is listed with 185hp and 194 lb of torque. i drove my son's car for the first time the other day and that car had sooo much power compared to my wife's sonata I thought there was a v6 in the Saab until I checked it out. I had never driven a turboed car before. The power comes on sooo strong once the turbo kicks in. The tercel needs a turbo if there is a way to keep the head gasket intack. There is a lag so it should not be too shocking to the trans. I would do a turbo even if you do a 4age. A turbo combined with an EFI should help MPG quite a bit. Of course boost needs to be kept in perspective. An under powered car will always use more gas than a car that is more balanced with hp to weight ratio.

[hberdan]

My son's 98 Saab 900 turbo is listed with 185hp and 194 lb of torque. i drove my son's car for the first time the other day and that car had sooo much power .

Yep, I'm driving a 9-3 SAAB with the 2.3l 230 hp turbo engine. It is a remarkable vehicle to say the least. No problem with freeway driving and the tank holds a huge amount of fuel.
It does lack that Tercel wagon "open cockpit" feel, however, and it also lacks decent cupholders.

[toughtercel]

hi , i am back with all those reply i read from you all "very interesting" , "takza" was correct as LOW RPM with MAX TORQUE like diesel , i am sorry i did not explain clearly before to you all , here the chart of history of toyota's engine in the google ,
3A-C ---- max torque at 2,800 rpm
3A-U -----max torque at 2,400 rpm (reliable ??)
4A-C ----- max torque at 2,400 rpm
but A4GE -----max torgue at 4,400 -4,800 rpm
4A-FE-----max torque at 4,400 plus rpm

imagine you're off-road or steep hill with high RPM it might or will spin yours wheels

as for "HOMESKOOL" he right also , tercel4WD is the only car in the world (almost) can covert from front drive into REAR DRIVE i plan that for long time , my wife think it stupid , but cool , imagine a toyota beater right beside the BMW M3 it will pop their eyes out , one of these day , now we are talking about horsepower 100 - 300 hp.

now adding power to 3A-C or 4 A-C is great , remeber max torque at 2,800 hardly ever changes, my father once said reason he pick LAND ROVER (1969) because GEAR RATIO , and can stay on groud while drive on side way 45 degree sloop , you 're wonder if he ever try it, ohh man he sure did manytimes to me and other friends but all his friend never ride with him again , that how he lose friends in the past , last of all it NARROW so it can drive in the bushes and forest not like HUMMER or other wide 4x4 , now hard find parts and B.C. sold all use parts to ALBERTA
now i pick TERCEL 4WD since 1999 , my brother owns Ford 4x4 F150 i challenge with him , i made his JAW drop , people kept saying TERCEL AWD no, no, no it TERCEL 4X4 it all 4 wheel same equal power train , AWD front and rear have differ % power , SECONDLY it OLD because GPS , EASY replace /repair parts ( ha one time i had bad ALTERNATOR , pick up few tools with me , went to LORDCO AUTO PART , did'nt want to pay extra core charge , i ask him if he have in stock , he said yeah , i told him i will take old one out of tercel now ,i'll be back five min, then five min later i am back , he could not believe it ,how did i do it , my answer to him car is old and simple)
tercel is best "u" turn and ground clearance , i just measure at lowest at rear axle 7 inches with 175/80 r13 tires, and bla ,bla ,bla ,
i own four TERCEL S.W. now (1) 1983 4WD just bought it last month from Blain WA. 95% rust-free ,my daily driving,excellent handling car but all 83 /84 heater control as lousy ,just finish swap SR5 stuff (seat are best, mag wheels,speedo,sterring wheel and others ,next job is,try to install 86 tercel heater controlers (divider controls)
(2) 1985 front drive - my wife and daughter driving now
(3) 1983 4WD for 4x4 club to have fun and show off (p.s. how big the rim and tires can i install,thanks guy)
last one (4) 1986 4WD on hold for future plan to covert rear wheel drive (HP ?) can't wait to kick theirs butt,
that all and thank you guys/gals for replying "POWER NOT THE ANSWER" hope see you somewhere as TERCEL4WD RALLEY in B.C. and WA.

[Petros]

here the chart of history of toyota's engine in the google ,
3A-C ---- max torque at 2,800 rpm
3A-U -----max torque at 2,400 rpm (reliable ??)
4A-C ----- max torque at 2,400 rpm
but A4GE -----max torgue at 4,400 -4,800 rpm
4A-FE-----max torque at 4,400 plus rpm

You are missing important information by just quoting peak power and RPM. While the 4AGE does have a high and peaky power curve, I think the 4AFE is the best suited engine for the Tercel 4wd, way better than 3ac or 4ac. The torque curve of the 4AFE is almost flat, it stays as 90-95% of max from about 2200 rpm to almost 5000rpm, it is also fuel injected (more reliable than the carb), delivers more power AND better fuel economy (better design) and it is a much cleaner engine in terms of emissions. So you are not sacrificing economy nor cleaner air to get more power and reliability from the 4AFE. This is the engine that should have come in the Tercel4wd. The two problems with the 4AFE are the distributor location, and the coolant hose inlet/outlet (due to transverse installation in the Corolla), and to a lesser extent the exhaust manifold (requires custom header which is costly but it can be done). It can be made to work, but there are issues to overcome. The other thing you are missing here is that engines like the 4AGE have way more torque at 2,800 rpm than the 3AC, even if the peak torque occurs much higher. The 4AGE is also cleaner and delivers better economy, along with the extra power, than the 3/4AC.

With a more complete look at the engine and power curve issues, your argument falls flat. I think the real question is whether all the effort, cost and trouble is worth it to get a better engine in a 25 year old car. It can only be justified as a "hobby" effort, like building a hot rod (except there is a much smaller market for a higher powered Tercel), there is no financial justification for it. But like most customizing of old cars, it a fun and creative effort to try to make it better, and as a bonus you may end up with a pretty decent daily driver too.

BTW, I never said the Tercel was a failure, I said they blew it with the 3ac head design. They had better engines available, they could have used those, but they used an obsolete design with no ability to grow it into a more powerful engine. Even Toyota abandon it after the 4ac, as compared to all the other engines for which there are still newer versions in production today. The 4AGE was produced from '84 up to '97(?) and came in 5 different models of cars in numerous variations, plus sold for Formula Atlantic racing. The 4AF was introduced in '87, including the larger variations came is 5 models or more and I believe at least one version (perhaps more) is still in production. The 3ac was introduced in '83 and it ended in '87 (good thing too). So even Toyota did not think much of the 3ac, too bad they put it in such a great little 4x4 wagon. I just want to correct their error, and get me the T4wd that I really want. Dump the carb, dump the poor head design, give me 16-valves and EFI! Viva La Tercel 4wd! May it live forever!

[gatemaster]

Petros, Do you feel that the trans will stand up to the 4age? I agree with you that the 3a, 4ac design is obsolete and was when they put it in the car. Are the corrola 4wd and awd versions better since they come with better engines? In other words aside from the likeability of the Tercel 4wd is the corrola 4wd and awd versions more worth it from a cost point of view and the better technology? I have a 1984 tercel 4wd in very good condition with a rebuilt 3ac so the car itself is worth the engine upgrade I think. So will you do a write up on the EFI part of the setup? That is the part that scares me the most of the conversion. The mechanical part is easy.

[Petros]

I think I can make the trans work okay with the 4age, I will not be driving it hard as in a race, and with synth oil, perhaps an auxillary trans filter/cooler it should hold up well I think. If I was going to tweak the 4age to 200-300hp like some have done in their GTSs or MR2s that might be a different story, but I am not going there.

I have driven my Tercel 4wd and our Corolla all-trac extensively. They are very different cars, it is hard to say which is better. The corolla is heavier so the extra power is not as noticeable (but the high torque is noticeable on hills). The Corolla has less ground clearance and it rides soft and is less responsive (my wife likes it better, I hate it). I considered dumping the Tercel and doing major modifications to the Corolla instead of the Tercel since I am starting with a better engine and there is more aftermarket stuff available for the Corolla. But after driving both for a several months each, I choose the Tercel. I really enjoyed the Tercel much more; It is more nimble, has more ground clearance, the handling is more fun and crisp, it has much better visibility, it also has the EL first gear. The Tercel is just more fun to drive, so after much deliberation I choose to build me a "hot rod" Tercel, rather a Tercel 4wd "GTS twin-cam". My plans are go swap in a newer EFI engine, custom exhaust, upgrade to 4 wheel disk brakes, upgrade the suspension and up grade the interior.

I kind of like the quirky jeep-like look of the Tercel too, like a mini-hummer. The Corolla just looks like any other car.

On the Corolla you are already starting out with a newer design, and more durable trans, so there is a lot less work to do to make it better. I could just do a good performance rebuild with custom exhaust, and upgrade the suspension, but it would still be heavy and not as nimble. I even considered swapping in one of the transverse 4AGE engines, but in such a heavy car I think it would be a waste of effort. I choose to stay with the Tercel, I just like it better even if I choose the more difficult path. Being lighter the Tercel should get better fuel economy too, I am hoping for around 40 mpg when I am done.

I may some day do an All-trac, just for fun, but I doubt it.

Do not be intimidated by the EFI, it is actually way simpler than that shitty carb and emission control system on the 3ac. And more reliable. You need the computer, the manifold and injectors, fuel pressure regulator and an EFI fuel pump, a few vac lines and 5 sensors, the wiring to tie it all together, and you are good! Once you learn the system, it is easy to diagnose and service. The only thing I do not look forward to is running all the wiring around the engine compartment, a PIA, but worth it according to all who have done the switch. If you do not want EFI, they make duel weber manifolds and carbs for the 4age engine, but I want to get away from the carbs.