Non A Family Engine Swaps

General discussion about our beloved Tercel 4WD cars
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Kozuto_98
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Non A Family Engine Swaps

Post by Kozuto_98 »

I'd like to start a discussion thread on using engines outside of Toyota's A family of engines for a swap.
There's a few ideas I've had stuck in my head for a bit that I'd like to test out in some fashion in due time.

I want to make this very clear that everything should stay hypothetical, unless me or anyone else wants to test things out.

Here are a few of the ideas I have in mind.
These line up with some extra parts I have laying around that I would like to play with.
I have plans to pick up a spare transmission to use as testing material for some of these ideas, I'm just waiting for the seasons to change.

Toyota 1ZZ-FE
This possibility is one that a friend of mine poked at a little while ago when we were discussing engine possibilities.
What made this one intriguing to me is the wide availability of the 1ZZ-FE as it came in everything from 8th and 9th gen Corollas, MRS, Vibe,
Matrix, and 7th gen Celicas. The obvious factors to consider are mounting points, hood clearance, flywheel options, and transmission differences.
I'd love to test how much could be interchanged between the transmissions, as in will the 1ZZ-FE bell housing mount to the 3A-C transmission
with or without fab work, and input shaft differences. The 1ZZ-FE is one of my all time favorite engines to work with as I've done my fair share
on the 06 Corolla I once owned and I think it'd be cool to see one fitted into a Tercel. I also have a spare 1ZZ-FE long block in storage I'd like to
try on a spare Tercel transmission someday. This swap would most likely require a custom flywheel and spacer adapters.

Toyota E Family Engines
For this one I had the 3E-E and 5E-FE in mind. Both engines are very common and relatively small. The same considerations will fall inline
with making it work with the Tercel transmission but I personally feel this option might work well, depending on how well it plays with the
transmission of course. I really like the 5E-FE. They're exceptionally reliable and great on gas, but they have the dreaded oil consumption problem.
It's not common in all areas, but I think it'd be cool to see the fabled 4E-FTE put into one of these Tercels.

Honda D Series
This one again falls in the theme of availability, and again same as before considerations would apply when talking about using this engine
with the Tercel transmission and so on. There's a lot of choice in the D series world. You could go for small or large displacements, swap parts
out to suit your needs, and enjoy a massive library of aftermarket support. The D series is the possibly the nearest thing to Lego when building
an engine. I can speak from experience with this one as I once owned a heavily modified Acura EL that contained an engine compiled from
4 other engines. This is another one that I could try testing on a spare transmission as I have a big bin of D series parts I have yet to get rid of

I'd love to know what everyone else would like to see put into these.
I'd also love to hear input and thoughts on what it might take to make something like what I mentioned work, and engines beyond
what I spoke of.
1987 Tercel Wagon SR5 4WD
1997 Acura CL
RIP 2016 Civic (wrist pin recall)
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NWMO
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Re: Non A Family Engine Swaps

Post by NWMO »

Hey Koz,

I’m hoping to find a Toyota 1n-t diesel and see if I can make it work. You have some interesting ideas. The transverse engines often times have the starter on the back side of the fly wheel which creates some challenges. Due to low clearance over the diff, most engines with oil pumps on the bottom rear would require serious modification. I’ve no experience with the 3E series, but have read other posts of the opinion the engine is not worth the time, poor durability, short life?? The 4age has been done and is a nice engine IF you want to work that hard.

Chris

PS - my parts car still has the engine/diff, so I hope to get it prepped for test gits down the road.
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Petros
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Re: Non A Family Engine Swaps

Post by Petros »

the 1-zz engine is an excellent choice, you are on your own to make it work as far as custom parts/adapters, but it is a great engine for this car, very reliable and fairly light. I would not bother with the 3EE, not worth the effort, suffers same limitations of the 3ac without enough benefit for your trouble. the 5E-FE is an interesting engine, but unless the installation and adaption is a lot easier, you might as well stay with the 1-zz, it is a better more modern engine with lots more options available for it. I was told that the 5E has a different bell housing bolt pattern than the 3A-4A engine (they look similar), so there is no advantage there. Even if you get one free, the amount of effort it would take to make it work is better spent on the 1-zz engine. the 1-zz is one of the best engines Toyota ever made, if you already have one, why look any further?

I would also stay with toyota engines, they are abundant, parts are cheap and common, and I think they are more durable than the honda engines. I have owned a number of hondas in the past, and have rebuilt several mid
80s honda engines. The newer hondas are not as reliable as the older ones, and they do hold up well in a street car, but they have always struck me as fragile compared to the Toyota engines. it also seems like you would have more of a Franken- car: a vintage Tercel with a honda engine. many classic cars, fully restored, can sell for a lot more money if they have a quality done engine up grade staying within the same manufacture. I think using a different brand of engine is perhaps seen as a kind of a kluge job, "impure", a betrayal of the brand to loyalists. I can see a toyota enthusiast paying a very pretty penny for a fully restored and "modernized" Tercel4wd. of course it should also have other mechanical (brakes) and interior up grades to match of course. the 1zz comes with up to 140 hp, and the 2-zz turbo MR2 version with up to 225 hp!
'87 Tercel 4wd SR5 (current engine swap project)
'84 Tercel 4wd (daily driver, with on going mods)
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drafting3d
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Re: Non A Family Engine Swaps

Post by drafting3d »

- I have a 2ZZ in my 2013 Corolla Hatch and it is fantastic fun, zero issues and great economy. Even with the CVT transmission! (sport mode and auto retards timing in hard shifts etc)

- I have seen multiple 4efte (starlet galanza?) swaps into AE82 Hatches, some of the local chaps said the original 4AC fwd gearbox did actually fit the 4efte block, apart from one bolt hole near starter. I still need to confirm that.

- Also had an Echo years back (2nzfe? 1.3 twincam) had a 6000RPM and incredible economy.

Retaining the 4wd box seems to be the main issue with this fitting that etc, If I was to have a RWD only option I would likely go with 3RZ (2.7 lt dohc)
It is super hardy, has low down torque and also huge aftermarket following for boosted applications (turboated or supercharred)
Could then match the Diff and Gearbox to suit.
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Kozuto_98
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Re: Non A Family Engine Swaps

Post by Kozuto_98 »

I agree with what Petros said on the 1ZZ-FE. It's a really good all rounder, and I forgot to mention that it too, along with the 2ZZ-GE have
really good aftermarket support from companies like MWR. If what drafting3d said about the 4E-FTE swap in AE82 Corollas turns out to work
I will seriously consider looking into making a 5E-FE work with the Tercel transmission. As far as I understand the 4E and 5E blocks share the same
transmission bolt pattern. The 5E-FE flywheel is also a 6 bolt, but I believe the spacing of the bolts is wider, and the pilot bushing is also a larger
diameter. If I ever get my hands on a lathe and a good tig welder maybe some fab work would sort that out.

Something I forgot to mention with the 1ZZ-FE possibility is that if it does somehow work well, it should also open the door for the larger
displacement AZ family of motors. (Found in 2nd gen Rav4s and some others). A 2 liter would be really cool to see in these Tercels.
Forgot to also mention the smaller 3ZZ-FE, which should also fall inline.

Another thing drafting3d brought up, the NZ family motors. Wow I feel stupid for not considering them. Just as abundant and great motors.
There's also a surprising aftermarket and following for them too. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm under the impression the NZ and ZZ motors
share the same transmission bolt pattern. The 1NZ-FE was a motor I highly considered swapping into my first car after it started burning more
oil than gas. 97 Tercel.

Another couple options I was thinking about are the 22-RE / 20R and so on. I vaguely remember seeing something about these engines
on this forum but that could just be my imagination. I'm not very familiar with these motors so I can't really give much more of my own
input on them.

The last idea was actually brought up by a friend of mine who loves TDI VW stuff.
He mentioned that it'd be really cool to see the VW ALH or BEW/BHM engines in one of these Tercels. Maybe not so much for street driving, but
more for off road type driving. If kept stock, the ALH is incredibly reliable and makes really good low end torque. The main problems I see
with using these engines is of course the fab work involved, but also the question of how much low end torque can the Tercel transmission
handle realistically.
1987 Tercel Wagon SR5 4WD
1997 Acura CL
RIP 2016 Civic (wrist pin recall)
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Petros
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Re: Non A Family Engine Swaps

Post by Petros »

the 20r and 22re came in the trucks/Forerunner and also in the celicas. it is much larger (2.2 liters) and heavier, it is a a good engine with lots of torque, but it is larger and the bolt pattern is no where near fitting it in the Tercel. it might be too large to fit in the Tercel engine bay. it does a have a large following, with lots of aftermarket parts. if going to that much trouble I would go for the 22RE to get fuel injection, but there are lots of carb after market up grades available for the 20R engine.

My daughter bought a VW diesel, lured by the myth of reliability and economy. I told her it was a mistake, she bought it anyway. And after a year or two of pouring a lot of her hard earned money into it trying to keep it on the road, the engine finally bundled itself up beyond repair, letting her know in no uncertain terms, it aint' worth it.
'87 Tercel 4wd SR5 (current engine swap project)
'84 Tercel 4wd (daily driver, with on going mods)
'92 Mazda MPV 4wd (wife's daily driver)
'85 Tercel 4wd DLX auto(daughter's daily driver)
'01 Honda Civic (other daughter's daily driver)
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Kozuto_98
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Re: Non A Family Engine Swaps

Post by Kozuto_98 »

True on the VW stuff. They seem to be a mixed bag. Either you get a good one or a dud.
1987 Tercel Wagon SR5 4WD
1997 Acura CL
RIP 2016 Civic (wrist pin recall)
teranfirbt
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Re: Non A Family Engine Swaps

Post by teranfirbt »

The biggest hurdle with going to a non A engine is the interface to the Tercel bellhousing along with clearing the front diff. Then you run into the whole transaxle strength problem, especially with the torquey engines. Can it be done? Sure, but the stock transaxle is a serious limit when you start getting over 130 ft lbs of torque or so. At that point, I'd start looking at full drivetrain swaps, might as well dig that rabbit hole deeper 😉.

As I recall, all of the Honda engines until the K series spin the wrong way, those are a bit of a no go without some serious mods.
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