2nd Gen 4A-FE Swap

General discussion about our beloved Tercel 4WD cars
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Kozuto_98
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Re: 2nd Gen 4A-FE Swap

Post by Kozuto_98 »

Alright, so after some heavy thinking and some great input from Petros and teranfirbt, I'll be switching to COP. I'm gonna try going wasted spark first
due to what parts I have available. Depending on what I can make work, I'll either be using the wasted spark setup from a 1998 Tercel, or try going
full sequential COP with 1ZZ-FE coils. My main concern is mounting and fitment of the 5E-FE COP setup.

380.jpg
One thing I'll note is earlier 5E-FE engines used a distributor and they were later adapted to a wasted spark dumb coil setup with an external igniter.
Coil 1 fires holes 1 and 4, and coil 2 fires holes 2 and 3. My good friend Dylan has a parts car laying around so I'm sure he wouldn't mind trading a case
of beer for the igniter and coils.

I managed to find a wiring pdf for the 5E-FE for Tercels and Paseos, so I'll give a quick rundown of how I'll be wiring this up with the Speeduino.
This should all easily adapt to Megasquirt.

image_2.jpg
Here is the pinout for the 5E-FE COP igniter.
Pin 1 (Red + White Stripe Wire): IGC2. Coil control for holes 2 and 3.
Pin 2 (Light Green + Black Stripe): IGF. Feedback signal. Generally not used with aftermarket ecus.
Pin 3 (White + Black Stripe): Chassis ground.
Pin 4 (Blue + Yellow Stripe): IGT2. Igniter trigger signal from ecu for holes 2 and 3.
Pin 5 (Light Green): IGT1. Igniter trigger signal from ecu for holes 1 and 4.
Pin 6 (Black + Blue Stripe): Tach signal out. (Not sure if this will play nice with the stock tach)
Pin 7 (Black + Orange Stripe): 12v in.
Pin 8 (Red): IGC1. Coil control for holes 1 and 4.

Screenshot 2021-03-08 113154.png
Here is the diagram for the coils and igniter. The Black + White Stripe wire going to the coils is 12v switched from the battery.

Last little bit I'll add is I will use one of the 36-1 trigger wheels from DIY Autotune over the factory crank trigger if I cannot make it work with this setup. And again, I'll use this setup if I can get the COP setup from the 5E-FE to fit the 4A-FE head.
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1987 Tercel Wagon SR5 4WD
1997 Acura CL
RIP 2016 Civic (wrist pin recall)
teranfirbt
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Re: 2nd Gen 4A-FE Swap

Post by teranfirbt »

The beauty of coil on plug is that you can cheat and run wasted spark by pairing the trigger wires of 1-4 and 2-3 on your ignition signal from the ecu 😉. This gets you the main benefit of COP without having to have a cam signal, it'll all run off the crank.
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Kozuto_98
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Re: 2nd Gen 4A-FE Swap

Post by Kozuto_98 »

teranfirbt wrote: Mon Mar 08, 2021 9:22 am The beauty of coil on plug is that you can cheat and run wasted spark by pairing the trigger wires of 1-4 and 2-3 on your ignition signal from the ecu 😉. This gets you the main benefit of COP without having to have a cam signal, it'll all run off the crank.
Excellent!
So I shouldn't need any cam trigger If I run the wasted spark system from 5E-FE. That makes life way easier!
1987 Tercel Wagon SR5 4WD
1997 Acura CL
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teranfirbt
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Re: 2nd Gen 4A-FE Swap

Post by teranfirbt »

Correct, wasted spark can be done from the cam OR the crank, coil on plug requires both.
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Kozuto_98
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Re: 2nd Gen 4A-FE Swap

Post by Kozuto_98 »

What size crank wheel did you go with from diy autotune?
1987 Tercel Wagon SR5 4WD
1997 Acura CL
RIP 2016 Civic (wrist pin recall)
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Petros
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Re: 2nd Gen 4A-FE Swap

Post by Petros »

here is a pretty good video that summarizes the different ignition systems. one thing he leaves off is that any system with bevel gears gets a small amount of slop between the gears making it impossible to get a reliable accurate spark placement. You can actually see gear slop this using a timing light on the front pulley, you can see an occasional spark several degrees off. This is why geared distributors have been abandoned by the car makers to improve emissions, and performance.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L_hx8I6GzyU
'87 Tercel 4wd SR5 (current engine swap project)
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teranfirbt
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Re: 2nd Gen 4A-FE Swap

Post by teranfirbt »

The 6-3/4" wheel with slots will do nicely. Get some spacers and use the M8 threads in the crank pulley hub to mount it.
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Kozuto_98
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Re: 2nd Gen 4A-FE Swap

Post by Kozuto_98 »

Awesome! I'll get that plus a sensor and spacers ordered today!
1987 Tercel Wagon SR5 4WD
1997 Acura CL
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Kozuto_98
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Re: 2nd Gen 4A-FE Swap

Post by Kozuto_98 »

Got a little update and a question regarding this project.

The 4A-FE ITB kit from SMR2U came in today but they had neglected to mention on their site that it does not include the 4A-GE 20V IACV or TPS.
I'm not certain, but I think the 4A-FE TPS will work with the ITB setup, but regardless I'd like to ask, if anyone knows a reliable place/site I can
purchase both a 4A-GE 20V (blacktop & silvertop) IACV and TPS please let me know!
1987 Tercel Wagon SR5 4WD
1997 Acura CL
RIP 2016 Civic (wrist pin recall)
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Kozuto_98
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Re: 2nd Gen 4A-FE Swap

Post by Kozuto_98 »

Thought I'd leave some screencaps of the current VE, spark, and AFR maps I've setup for the speeduino ecu to use as a base map when everything
is ready. If anyone has suggestions on any improvements or changes I should make to these please let me know, my tuning experience comes
from tuning low boost Honda stuff, not NA engines so this is somewhat a first for me.

vetable.png
This is the current VE table I'm working with. Because I'll be using an ITB setup I opted to used TPS as the reference load over KPA.
The VE table is a mix of a reference 4A-GE 16v, 7A-FE, and 4A-GE Silvertop VE table. I'm hoping this map won't be too lean anywhere and will be
enough coupled with the start up enrichment I plugged in to make the first startup fairly straight forward. I'll iron this map out more once the engine
is in the car and running before I get a proper tune done.

sparktable.png
When I was looking for some reference spark tables all I could find were 4A-GE tables that seemed a bit too much for the 4A-FE, so instead of running
too much timing I was offered a spark table for a stock Ford ZeTec and averaged it with the most conservative 4A-GE spark table I could find.
This table is something I'll for sure be ironing out once the engine is in and running.

afrtable.png
This is the current AFR target map I'm working with. This is still a bit rough and I will be smoothing this out more when the time comes.
my goals for AFR targets are to keep it between 14.7 and 13.4.

Again, I'd appreciate and suggestions on how I can make these maps better, and if anyone would like to see any of the other settings I've done
in tunerstudio I'm happy to share what I have setup.
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NWMO
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Re: 2nd Gen 4A-FE Swap

Post by NWMO »

Neat stuff, great work!
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Petros
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Re: 2nd Gen 4A-FE Swap

Post by Petros »

I am not that familiar with the way this graphic works, but it appears that blue is lean, green is "ideal", and red is rich A/F ratio. rpm across the bottom, and throttle position (or engine laod) along the left axis.

the 4age cam puts all the power at high rpm, so you would want more fuel in the upper rpm range to maximize power output, that would not be ideal for economy. but for hwy crusing you are at part throttle loading, perhaps at 25 to 30 percent of max.

the 4afe OTOH, is designed for economy, so it seems you would optimum A/F ratio in the middle rpms, at part throttle loading.

you can optimize the fuel/air ratio to achieve your performance goals for your installation with a programmable ECM, are you looking for max power output, or max economy?
'87 Tercel 4wd SR5 (current engine swap project)
'84 Tercel 4wd (daily driver, with on going mods)
'92 Mazda MPV 4wd (wife's daily driver)
'85 Tercel 4wd DLX auto(daughter's daily driver)
'01 Honda Civic (other daughter's daily driver)
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Kozuto_98
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Re: 2nd Gen 4A-FE Swap

Post by Kozuto_98 »

I'm aiming for a mix of both. I'm going the route of an ITB setup with 4A-GE valve springs and a light port. If the build manages anything over 125HP
crank I'll be happy. I'm unsure if like MS3, the speeduino can switch maps on the fly. Say for example a more performance oriented tune and a general
cruising/econ map. I'll have to look into that.

I think with the map graphic for tunerstudio, the higher the number, the further the color gradients from blue to red, which seems backwards in the
AFR map.
1987 Tercel Wagon SR5 4WD
1997 Acura CL
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Kozuto_98
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Re: 2nd Gen 4A-FE Swap

Post by Kozuto_98 »

Just gonna run off a couple other ideas I have floating around for coil packs that I might try or use for this project.

First idea I have is using Honda K series 3 pin smart coils.
k coils.jpg
I have a few sets of these laying around from a scrapped project which come from various engines. Not sure how these will do fitment wise
as there is likely some differences in plug size and what not. From what I understand these have a fairly stout spark for NA cars so they might
make a good option for a performance build, given they fit of course.
Wiring is also very straight forward with these.

Left pin: IGT
Center pin: Ground
Right pin: 12v

I'm not sure how these would fair in a wasted spark setup given they'll be fired double the amount of their given life time. Possible excess heat
and low life cycles might become a problem.

Next idea I have and really want to try is Subaru EJ253 wasted spark coils.
ej253 coil.jpg
There is one major flaw with these coils however. Due to where they are positioned in Subaru bays, they tend to get hammered with a lot of
extra heat and sometimes crap out early. What gave me the idea to use these is that the factory 4A-FE spark plug wires might fit to the
given connections on the coil pack, making the installation easier. They also have the advantage of being able to be mounted where ever you'd like.
These seem to be very common too and relatively cheap. These were also used on some Dodge and Mitsubishi applications.
MSD also makes a higher output version that is the 3 pin variant if more spark is needed.

Pinout for 4 pin
Left pin: Ground
Center Left and right pins: IGT
Right pin: 12V

The pinout for the 3 pin coil follows the 4 pin, except it removes the ground pin.
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AugustusFerdinand
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Re: 2nd Gen 4A-FE Swap

Post by AugustusFerdinand »

Petros wrote: Thu Mar 25, 2021 9:42 pm I am not that familiar with the way this graphic works, but it appears that blue is lean, green is "ideal", and red is rich A/F ratio. rpm across the bottom, and throttle position (or engine laod) along the left axis.
The colors mean next to nothing as the software does not determine what is or is not ideal for you. Blue represents numbers closer to the lowest value on the table, red numbers closest to the highest value, and green the middle.

In the AFR table the red cells are all the stoichiometric 14.7 so on the leaner side of the table while blue gets as rich as 13.4.
1983 Toyota Tercel SR5 - 7AGE swap in progress
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