2nd Gen 4A-FE Swap

General discussion about our beloved Tercel 4WD cars
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Kozuto_98
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Re: 2nd Gen 4A-FE Swap

Post by Kozuto_98 »

4agerods3webia3.jpg
Here's some 4A-GE rods compared. The 2nd gen 4A-FE rods look very similar to late smallport & silvertop rods.
I'm fairly certain the little end of the rods I have are 20mm, but I'll check tomorrow to be sure of it.
If not I'll have to source rods that have the 40mm big end and 20mm little end.

SMR is allowing me to return the ITB kit I bought for the 4A-FE head, so from that money back I'll have enough to get the stuff I need.
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1987 Tercel Wagon SR5 4WD
1998 Honda Accord Coupe V6 J35 swap
1997 Acura CL (Sold for 4A-GE money)
RIP 2016 Civic (wrist pin recall)
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Kozuto_98
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Re: 2nd Gen 4A-FE Swap

Post by Kozuto_98 »

Just measured the rods from the 2nd gen 4A-FE, 20mm little end and 42mm big end, which means all good to go for silvertop pistons.
1987 Tercel Wagon SR5 4WD
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teranfirbt
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Re: 2nd Gen 4A-FE Swap

Post by teranfirbt »

Neat!
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Kozuto_98
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Re: 2nd Gen 4A-FE Swap

Post by Kozuto_98 »

Here's is my full plan overview now updated to suite the silvertop head.
I'll be making the trip to get the head next weekend after I replace the head gasket in my Tercel.

ignition
I'll be using 1ZZ-FE coils with the adapter plate from SQ-Engineering, and no distributor which means no cam trigger for now.
For the time being I'll make a one off block plug. In the future I'll try to find a 20V distributor to run a cam trigger for full sequential ignition.
The distributor that comes with the head I'm getting has some problems so I cannot use it.

Link for the COP plate
https://www.sq-engineering.com/product/ ... ter-plate/

Bottom end
in the rotating assembly I'll be using the 4A-FE block, crank, rods, oil pump, and rear main. All bearings will be for the 4A-FE. Pistons will be standard
size silvertop (81mm). I do not need to go oversized as my block is in excellent condition.
I'll also be using the TRD metal head gasket over a traditional one as I'm a fan of MLS head gaskets.

Link for the TRD head gasket
https://www.sq-engineering.com/product/ ... ket-0-8mm/

Cooling system
Here's where going to the silvertop head makes the whole project a little easier. Again, SQ-engineering has the parts I need.
They sell a RWD conversion kit for the cooling system on blacktop and silvertop swaps. This part is mainly meant for use in a AE86.
This kit would save me the hassle of running pipes from the back of the head to connect at the radiator. It's a little on the pricy side but I don't
mind paying a little more to save a headache.
Don't quote me on this, but I think this kit may also work with the 2nd gen 4A-FE and 7A-FE head.
I'll be reusing the aluminum B series radiator I put in for this project.

Link for the cooling conversion kit
https://www.sq-engineering.com/product/ ... rsion-kit/

Top end
For the head I'm mainly just going to freshen everything up. The only major change will be deleting the VVT solenoid and VVT intake cam gear.
My reason for this is because these parts are worth a lot now so I'd rather not have to deal with spending a boat load of cash replacing
them if something were to go wrong. I'll be selling these parts to fund the project.

What I'll instead do is go for the VVT plug from SQ-Engineering and adjustable cam gears from Toda.

Toda cam gears
https://www.toda-racing.co.jp/en/produc ... g5v-2.html
VVT block plug
https://www.sq-engineering.com/product/ ... king-plug/

Everything else for my plan will stay the same. I'll still be making a custom header and using the 4A-FE harness with the Speeduino ECU.
1987 Tercel Wagon SR5 4WD
1998 Honda Accord Coupe V6 J35 swap
1997 Acura CL (Sold for 4A-GE money)
RIP 2016 Civic (wrist pin recall)
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Petros
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Re: 2nd Gen 4A-FE Swap

Post by Petros »

curious to know why they kept up dating the connecting rods over the various model of the same engine. the second one looks beefy strong. I wonder if there is any difference in weight.

a thought on the cooling adapter: it is hard to tell in the pictures of the parts, but the coolant circulation in the head is part of the design of the cooling system, if you change the location of the outlet from the head, it should mean the holes in the head gasket should also be changed to accommodate changing the direction of coolant flow. for example, in our 3ac engines (4ac similar), there are larger holes in the head gasket at the back of of the block, so coolant flows from the block mostly into the back of the head, than flows toward the outlet on the front of the head (along with the other smaller holes between the combustion changes, for cooling around the cylinders). if the outlet for the head was changed so the coolant exited out the back of the head, it would mean that the larger holes in the head gasket should be at the front, so as coolant flows up from the block into the head, it is forced to move from the front towards the outlet at the back.

you might study a picture of the 4age head gasket for the AE86, where the coolant flows out the front of the bock, with the 4afe head gasket you have, designed for transverse installation with the coolant outlet at the back of the head, and see how it is different. I would drill holes in the head gasket to match the one for the type where the coolant flows out the front of the head. it will ensure more even cooling of the head, and I would think a more durable installation. I have some experience with this issue, I redesigned the coolant circulation on a racing engine that had suffered head failure due to uneven cooling because of poor jacket design, and had discovered a flaw in the cooling design in the 3ac head, that I show how to correct over in my head gasket replacement guild on this forum.
'87 Tercel 4wd SR5 (current engine swap project)
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Kozuto_98
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Re: 2nd Gen 4A-FE Swap

Post by Kozuto_98 »

Petros wrote: Mon Apr 12, 2021 7:01 pm curious to know why they kept up dating the connecting rods over the various model of the same engine. the second one looks beefy strong. I wonder if there is any difference in weight.
If I had to make a guess, I'd say for the late BP early SP rods, they were made more beefy to accommodate the 4A-GZE. With the late SP and silvertop
rods they look almost identical to 4A-FE rods so I'd assume just some geometry changes for lightness and strength. The blacktop rods I know for
sure were made to be as light as possible while still being reliable. I'm not sure what alloy Toyota used for these rods, but they're all pretty heavy
considering their application. I held both my 4A rod and a 1ZZ rod to compare and the 4A rod is considerably heavier. Most notable H-Beam rods for
the 4A tend to be a lot lighter (MRP and so on).

Good catch on the head gasket, that isn't something I really considered. I'll have to compare some different offerings and see what would be best
suited. The TRD gasket I linked above I think is for FWD applications so I'll try to find one meant more for RWD 20V setups, if one exists. If not I don't
mind drilling into one a bit to save the head. Thanks for pointing that out!
1987 Tercel Wagon SR5 4WD
1998 Honda Accord Coupe V6 J35 swap
1997 Acura CL (Sold for 4A-GE money)
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Petros
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Re: 2nd Gen 4A-FE Swap

Post by Petros »

Kozuto_98 wrote: Mon Apr 12, 2021 10:36 pm Good catch on the head gasket, that isn't something I really considered.
I have talked to a few that have used a similar kit to allow the 20v engine to be used in the RWD AE86, and they say they have not had and issue. it just seems to me something important for long term durability and reliability. typically when the set up an engine for racing or show, they beat the crap out of it anyway and they expect to rebuild it regularly, so it would not necessary show up. but for a daily driver I would want to get 100k miles plus durability out of it. so optimizing the head cooling is important for something you do not expect to tear down every 500-1000 miles of hard driving.
'87 Tercel 4wd SR5 (current engine swap project)
'84 Tercel 4wd (daily driver, with on going mods)
'92 Mazda MPV 4wd (wife's daily driver)
'85 Tercel 4wd DLX auto(daughter's daily driver)
'01 Honda Civic (other daughter's daily driver)
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Kozuto_98
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Re: 2nd Gen 4A-FE Swap

Post by Kozuto_98 »

For sure on going for reliability. Hopefully this new engine goes for another 300,000KMs like the 3A did.
I did a little research and thankfully Toda makes a MLS head gasket for the 20V heads for RWD applications.

https://www.toda-racing.co.jp/en/produc ... t/4ag.html

It's a little bit more than a TRD MLS but I don't mind paying the difference if it means a longer life.
1987 Tercel Wagon SR5 4WD
1998 Honda Accord Coupe V6 J35 swap
1997 Acura CL (Sold for 4A-GE money)
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Re: 2nd Gen 4A-FE Swap

Post by Petros »

which headgasket? the upper one has the correct larger coolant holes at the back, but it says it is for the 4 valve design, the lower, for the 5 valve design, does not have those holes at the back of the headgasket.

what would that price be in USD? seems rather costly.
'87 Tercel 4wd SR5 (current engine swap project)
'84 Tercel 4wd (daily driver, with on going mods)
'92 Mazda MPV 4wd (wife's daily driver)
'85 Tercel 4wd DLX auto(daughter's daily driver)
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Kozuto_98
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Re: 2nd Gen 4A-FE Swap

Post by Kozuto_98 »

Petros wrote: Thu Apr 15, 2021 1:42 am which headgasket? the upper one has the correct larger coolant holes at the back, but it says it is for the 4 valve design, the lower, for the 5 valve design, does not have those holes at the back of the headgasket.

what would that price be in USD? seems rather costly.
Lower one, and it would be roughly $190 CAD. When compared to the TRD one it does seem to be too much for a head gasket.
Most 20V AE86 threads I've read seem to use the FWD head gasket. The 16V and 20V heads also have different coolant paths which may be why the
lager holes in the back are not present. Some folks use the factory rear coolant parts and run tubes to the front, and some make their own kits
which redirects everything to fit a RWD setup, but some say this causes cooling problems.
The RWD cooling kit from SQ claims that their kit retains the original flow despite some misconceptions.

I still have a lot of time before I do this swap so I'll keep on reading into this. I'd rather not deal with cooling problems for a second time :lol:
1987 Tercel Wagon SR5 4WD
1998 Honda Accord Coupe V6 J35 swap
1997 Acura CL (Sold for 4A-GE money)
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Kozuto_98
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Re: 2nd Gen 4A-FE Swap

Post by Kozuto_98 »

Got one last update for this thread.
Plans again have changed, but it was something a bit out of my control. Sadly the silvertop head that was offered to me has a crack in it so it's no longer usable. My aim right now is a 16v smallport head which I know where to get as of right now.

I'll be making a new thread on this in due time, and with the new head comes plan changes.
1987 Tercel Wagon SR5 4WD
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Re: 2nd Gen 4A-FE Swap

Post by AugustusFerdinand »

Can... can I have the Silvertop head from you to see if I can repair it?
1983 Toyota Tercel SR5 - 7AGE swap in progress
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Kozuto_98
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Re: 2nd Gen 4A-FE Swap

Post by Kozuto_98 »

AugustusFerdinand wrote: Fri May 07, 2021 10:23 am Can... can I have the Silvertop head from you to see if I can repair it?
I never got a chance to pick it up, but if she still has it when the NS lockdown settles down I'll see what I can do.
1987 Tercel Wagon SR5 4WD
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Re: 2nd Gen 4A-FE Swap

Post by AugustusFerdinand »

Kozuto_98 wrote: Fri May 07, 2021 12:31 pm
AugustusFerdinand wrote: Fri May 07, 2021 10:23 am Can... can I have the Silvertop head from you to see if I can repair it?
I never got a chance to pick it up, but if she still has it when the NS lockdown settles down I'll see what I can do.
I love you too.
1983 Toyota Tercel SR5 - 7AGE swap in progress
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