4A-GE Swap Thoughts

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Kozuto_98
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4A-GE Swap Thoughts

Post by Kozuto_98 » Sun Aug 23, 2020 8:41 am

I've been considering swapping the 3A-C in my wagon out later on in a year or so.
From what I already understand is the 4A-GE uses an 8 bolt pattern for the flywheel, and the stock flywheel is too large for the stock wagon transmission.
From what I've gathered, the 4A-C bolt pattern is 6 bolts just like the 3A-C, and is also compatible with the 4A-GE block, with the difference being strength.

So, my plan would be to get a 4A-GE and a 4A-C crank, do an overhaul on the motor, get the necessary parts for a carburetor conversion, maybe
MSD 6A for the ignition (if I can find one), and a new 3A-C flywheel and clutch, plus the small things to button up the swap.

My main concerns are how much torque and RPM the stock wagon transmission can handle, and hood clearance with a carb manifold.

I mainly want to do this swap for the bigger pool of parts availability and support for the 4A-GE, plus I just really like how that motor sounds.

I'd love some input as I'd like to know as much as I can before I do the swap down the road!
1987 Tercel Wagon SR5 4WD
2016 Honda Civic W/ light head work on KTuner V2 (187HP)

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dlb
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Re: 4A-GE Swap Thoughts

Post by dlb » Sun Aug 23, 2020 12:29 pm

There are many threads on this swap already. I think Larry's is the most comprehensive thus far but there are plenty of others too. They should give you an idea of what parts you should start gathering, what work you can do now, etc.

viewtopic.php?f=6&t=7576

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Kozuto_98
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Re: 4A-GE Swap Thoughts

Post by Kozuto_98 » Sun Aug 23, 2020 12:58 pm

dlb wrote:
Sun Aug 23, 2020 12:29 pm
There are many threads on this swap already. I think Larry's is the most comprehensive thus far but there are plenty of others too. They should give you an idea of what parts you should start gathering, what work you can do now, etc.

viewtopic.php?f=6&t=7576
Right on, Thanks!
1987 Tercel Wagon SR5 4WD
2016 Honda Civic W/ light head work on KTuner V2 (187HP)

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SirFoxx
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Re: 4A-GE Swap Thoughts

Post by SirFoxx » Mon Aug 24, 2020 5:03 pm

Kozuto_98 wrote:
Sun Aug 23, 2020 8:41 am
I've been considering swapping the 3A-C in my wagon out later on in a year or so.
From what I already understand is the 4A-GE uses an 8 bolt pattern for the flywheel, and the stock flywheel is too large for the stock wagon transmission.
From what I've gathered, the 4A-C bolt pattern is 6 bolts just like the 3A-C, and is also compatible with the 4A-GE block, with the difference being strength.

So, my plan would be to get a 4A-GE and a 4A-C crank, do an overhaul on the motor, get the necessary parts for a carburetor conversion, maybe
MSD 6A for the ignition (if I can find one), and a new 3A-C flywheel and clutch, plus the small things to button up the swap.

My main concerns are how much torque and RPM the stock wagon transmission can handle, and hood clearance with a carb manifold.

I mainly want to do this swap for the bigger pool of parts availability and support for the 4A-GE, plus I just really like how that motor sounds.

I'd love some input as I'd like to know as much as I can before I do the swap down the road!
Trans will be fine. There is someone who did a BT swap, and those make 160hp. I have a 7age swapped into my first gen tercel, which uses the same transmission, albeit fwd vs 4wd.

Hood clearance will be an issue as the intake sticks too far up. Exhaust routing is also a huge pain as well.
1988 DLX Tercel Wagon w/ weber (RIP)
1985 4wd Tercel SR5 (RIP)
1981 Toyota Tercel

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Kozuto_98
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Re: 4A-GE Swap Thoughts

Post by Kozuto_98 » Mon Aug 24, 2020 9:35 pm

Sweet! Kind of had a feeling the standard intake might not fit, hopefully I can find a lower profile carburetor manifold.
Do you know if using a 4A-C crank will be much cause for concern? I've read that they are a little weaker and not as well balanced.
1987 Tercel Wagon SR5 4WD
2016 Honda Civic W/ light head work on KTuner V2 (187HP)

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SirFoxx
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Re: 4A-GE Swap Thoughts

Post by SirFoxx » Mon Aug 24, 2020 10:00 pm

Kozuto_98 wrote:
Mon Aug 24, 2020 9:35 pm
Sweet! Kind of had a feeling the standard intake might not fit, hopefully I can find a lower profile carburetor manifold.
Do you know if using a 4A-C crank will be much cause for concern? I've read that they are a little weaker and not as well balanced.
Nah it should be okay. And the only intake that will kinda accept a carb is the 4agze intake, which is only for the big port head.

Just don't show people in 4age groups the setup. They reaaaallly don't like it when you get rid of mpfi. Ask me how I know :P
1988 DLX Tercel Wagon w/ weber (RIP)
1985 4wd Tercel SR5 (RIP)
1981 Toyota Tercel

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Kozuto_98
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Re: 4A-GE Swap Thoughts

Post by Kozuto_98 » Mon Aug 24, 2020 10:28 pm

Right on! I'm not sure if the motor I'm getting is a big port. It's coming out of a 85 MR2 that's in a junkyard.
That's a shame people don't like getting rid of the mpfi, carbed 4A-GEs sound really good.
1987 Tercel Wagon SR5 4WD
2016 Honda Civic W/ light head work on KTuner V2 (187HP)

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Petros
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Re: 4A-GE Swap Thoughts

Post by Petros » Mon Aug 24, 2020 10:44 pm

I have never heard of a balance issue with the six bolt crank, mechanically, dimensionally and appearance wise they are identical. supposedly the difference is the 4age is forged and the 4ac crank is cast iron. but side by side the appear identical. If you pushed the 4age to the limits of power, well over 200 hp, there might be an issue, but I think likely the 4a crank will never give you an issue installed in a Tercel4wd. the alternative is to use the 4age crank, with the 4age flywheel,have a machine shop cut down the outer rim to fit the 3ac ring gear, and it should all bolt up and fit fine. the 4age clutch is a bit larger and more performance clutches are available for the 4age engine, than for the 3ac engine. the 4age flywheel is also lighter than the stock (heavy) 3ac Tercel flywheel.

I have heard that the early 4age engines use a six bolt flywheel, if you can find one of those engine it would be a bolt on conversion. you should have the 3ac flywheel lightened, it is way too heavy at 22 lbs. I had might cut down to about 14 lbs, it improves throttle response.
'87 Tercel 4wd SR5 (current engine swap project)
'84 Tercel 4wd (daily driver, with on going mods)
'92 Mazda MPV 4wd (wife's daily driver)
'85 Tercel 4wd DLX auto(daughter's daily driver)
'01 Honda Civic (other daughter's daily driver)

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Kozuto_98
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Re: 4A-GE Swap Thoughts

Post by Kozuto_98 » Tue Aug 25, 2020 9:46 am

Thanks for the info, Petros!
I'm not planning to really chase more than stock power from the 4A-GE, but now that you mention lightening the flywheel I'll definitely look into that.
I never really put much thought into how heavy the 3A-C flywheel was, but it's certainly noticeable.
I doubt the motor I'm getting is early enough to be a 6 bolt crank, but i'll have to take another look next time I'm at the junkyard.
Mainly chasing this swap for better highway driving. the 3A-C is fine for around town but it's pretty much always slow lane at speed.

Do you know if I will be able to reuse the air conditioning parts from my 3A-C when I do the swap?
1987 Tercel Wagon SR5 4WD
2016 Honda Civic W/ light head work on KTuner V2 (187HP)

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SirFoxx
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Re: 4A-GE Swap Thoughts

Post by SirFoxx » Tue Aug 25, 2020 12:30 pm

Kozuto_98 wrote:
Tue Aug 25, 2020 9:46 am
Thanks for the info, Petros!
I'm not planning to really chase more than stock power from the 4A-GE, but now that you mention lightening the flywheel I'll definitely look into that.
I never really put much thought into how heavy the 3A-C flywheel was, but it's certainly noticeable.
I doubt the motor I'm getting is early enough to be a 6 bolt crank, but i'll have to take another look next time I'm at the junkyard.
Mainly chasing this swap for better highway driving. the 3A-C is fine for around town but it's pretty much always slow lane at speed.

Do you know if I will be able to reuse the air conditioning parts from my 3A-C when I do the swap?
You'll have to reuse all the brackets and motor mounts to swap the 4age in. So yes, you can reuse your ac parts. My 7age Tercel has nice, chilly ac :)

You'll have to make a new upper alternator bracket though. There's no spot for it on the ge heads.
1988 DLX Tercel Wagon w/ weber (RIP)
1985 4wd Tercel SR5 (RIP)
1981 Toyota Tercel

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Kozuto_98
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Re: 4A-GE Swap Thoughts

Post by Kozuto_98 » Tue Aug 25, 2020 4:59 pm

Oh sweet! My 87 wagon has better AC than my 2016 Civic so that'll be awesome in the summer!
Finding a spot for the alternator shouldn't be too hard. I've had to deal with that problem doing Honda stuff in the past.
1987 Tercel Wagon SR5 4WD
2016 Honda Civic W/ light head work on KTuner V2 (187HP)

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Re: 4A-GE Swap Thoughts

Post by Petros » Wed Aug 26, 2020 10:41 pm

Kozuto_98 wrote:
Tue Aug 25, 2020 9:46 am
I'm not planning to really chase more than stock power from the 4A-GE, but now that you mention lightening the flywheel I'll definitely look into that.
the 4age in stock form about double the 3ac hp, and it is more efficient and also gets better fuel economy in stock form when installed in the Tercel. it is a great up grade, modernize the Tercel, in fact, something I think toyota should have considered, all of their competitors had EFI cars with 16 valve heads already on a similar sized car, the 3ac was obsolete already at the beginning of the 2nd generation of the Tercel. The head is rather poorly designed. That is why I want to swap engines on my project tercel, get the power where it should be, eliminate the carburator and all those vacuum lines, improve economy, reliability and drivablity. I call it my Tercel4wd "GTS" project. now if only there was an easy way to get disk brakes on the rear, and a limited slip rear diff, it would be perfect.
Kozuto_98 wrote:
Tue Aug 25, 2020 9:46 am
I never really put much thought into how heavy the 3A-C flywheel was, but it's certainly noticeable.
I doubt the motor I'm getting is early enough to be a 6 bolt crank, but i'll have to take another look next time I'm at the junkyard.
Mainly chasing this swap for better highway driving. the 3A-C is fine for around town but it's pretty much always slow lane at speed.
there is no benefit that I can think of with a heavy flywheel, except one: being the sedan version of this car was their entry level car, a heavy flywheel is more stall resistant (the higher inertial mass will likely force the engine to keep running during a botched shift). so when a lot time, beginning driver goes to try out say a honda or a mazda, and they keep stalling the engine with unskilled clutch action, and they than go drive the Tercel without stalling out, they are more likely to buy it. it I think was a marketing decision. the corolla flywheel weight six pounds less, for a larger more powerful engine. with the extra power of the 4age, the weight only slows shifting since the engine is not as responsive. there is a big thick rib on the back of the 3ac flywheel, I took it completely off, and took a layer off the whole backside, and as much off the outer rim as possible without harming the clutch bolts. I got it down to about 14 lbs, but I would have been happy to get several more pounds off of it. you might also have the clutch face resurfaced as well. Than make sure you have the flywheel blanced after you have it lightened
Kozuto_98 wrote:
Tue Aug 25, 2020 9:46 am
Do you know if I will be able to reuse the air conditioning parts from my 3A-C when I do the swap?
yes, when you swap over all of the engine mounts, brackets and other external hardware the A/C should bolt right up in the same place.
'87 Tercel 4wd SR5 (current engine swap project)
'84 Tercel 4wd (daily driver, with on going mods)
'92 Mazda MPV 4wd (wife's daily driver)
'85 Tercel 4wd DLX auto(daughter's daily driver)
'01 Honda Civic (other daughter's daily driver)

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Kozuto_98
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Re: 4A-GE Swap Thoughts

Post by Kozuto_98 » Thu Aug 27, 2020 5:28 pm

Interesting you mention doing rear disc brakes. I made a post a while ago talking about the tercel wagon rear end being pretty much identical to the AE86 corolla rear end. I was mainly looking at it for suspension parts but I might have mentioned something about brake swapping for disc brakes there.
might require using the AE86 hubs and a couple other things but that could certainly open up the option for rear disc brakes.
Might also be a way to get a limited slip in these wagons, along with the plethora of aftermarket support for the AE86.
1987 Tercel Wagon SR5 4WD
2016 Honda Civic W/ light head work on KTuner V2 (187HP)

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