Fresh Weber and head replacement - oil weaping from exhaust?

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Jarf
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Re: Fresh Weber and head replacement - oil weaping from exhaust?

Post by Jarf »

When I first started pulling wrenches, the only rule was you had to be able to determine why something failed before you were allowed to do the job.
At first I didn't understand, I was more of a "fix the obvious" kinda a guy.,
Looking beyond the obvious can be rewarding in itself.
I also learned that the word "assume" has no place in the diagnostic world, unless one wants to waste HUGE amounts of money.

There a few points in your story that stand out to me:

"Removed the very plugged catalytic converter. "
"It very clearly had a bad exhaust valve"
"When I removed the cylinder head, the bore of cylinders 2 and 3 looked fantastic.
"I couldn't feel anything for ring ridge with my finger nail."
and the kicker
"I did not rotate the whole assembly and clean the carbon off the tops of the middle two pistons."

I am not saying that you have an issue with wrist pin on #4 but failing to rotate the engine only means you don't know for sure.
Catalysts typically last "forever" unless they rust out or get plugged.
That very plugged cat would indicate the problem isn't new and may well have been masking the issue.

Any "upgrades" should always be done after problems are sorted, as it avoids the question of "was it my repair or my modification"

At this point in the game, I would be looking to do a leak down test or pull the head (again) to rate the crank and properly inspect #1 and #4 cylinder walls.
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MrWrench
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Re: Fresh Weber and head replacement - oil weaping from exhaust?

Post by MrWrench »

I removed the spark plugs on cylinder 1 and 4. Rotated the crank to where the piston is at BDC.
I am using my cheapo Amazon special USB bore scope camera.

Here is pictures of cylinder 1.
190519_162900.jpg
190519_162926.jpg
190519_162941.jpg
Here is some of cylinder 4.
190519_163219.jpg
190519_163321.jpg
190519_163342.jpg
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1984 SR5. Lifted offroader with a snorkel. Aka "Thunderbucket"
1985 SR5. Daily driver. Aka "Spud"
1986 SR5. Dakar Rally clone build.
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Petros
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Re: Fresh Weber and head replacement - oil weaping from exhaust?

Post by Petros »

there should be mostly horizontal crisscross lines on the cylinder walls, even on an engine with a lot of miles on it. all I see in these cylinders is coarse vertical lines, This happens when the engine is run with dirty oil or without an air filter. grit polishes away all of the hone marks. see the picture of a worn cylinder wall. it appears your cylinder walls are worn away, and likely the rings are shot as well.

It appears your only option is to get another good condition used engine (time for a 4ac?) or you will have to pull the engine, have it over-bored and use oversized pistons and rings (a major job).

you might try running some Restore oil additive (works best to add it before a road trip so it does not fall out of suspension in the oil), or some STP. it is only a temp fix, those cylinder walls look pretty far gone.
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'92 Mazda MPV 4wd (wife's daily driver)
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MrWrench
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Re: Fresh Weber and head replacement - oil weaping from exhaust?

Post by MrWrench »

Do you think there's any likelihood of me using a hone and new rings to help it some? I'm not looking for perfect, just looking to keep it from blowing oil everywhere.

I might give the restore a shot, but I don't know how I'll drive it without soaking the engine bay again. Could I cap off the PCV and the port behind the PCV to keep oil from blowing out everywhere under the hood?
1984 SR5. Lifted offroader with a snorkel. Aka "Thunderbucket"
1985 SR5. Daily driver. Aka "Spud"
1986 SR5. Dakar Rally clone build.
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Petros
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Re: Fresh Weber and head replacement - oil weaping from exhaust?

Post by Petros »

I have tried honing and putting in new rings several times. I would advise against it: too much piston clearance (which you will have, and you likely have already now) results in piston slap, that will eventually cause the piston to break apart.

the piston clearance is very sensitive, my thoughts were well, it will be better than it was (I even installed new pistons so there would be less wear on the pistons to take up some of the excess clearance). but in less than a year the new pistons just failed. the clearance was not even that large, perhaps .002" larger than nominal clearance.

it is just not worth getting the engine that far apart and not doing the job properly. It is a lot more effort and cost to overbore the engine, but not doing it would only be a temporary fix at best. Not worth it, fix it once, do it right.

do not block off the crankcase vent, it will cause the seals to blow out with too much crankcase pressure ( it happened to me on a used corolla all-trac with very high miles, and lots of blow by, but it ran fairly good). Best thing to do is to put an old oil jug in the engine compartment and run the crankcase vent into it. This will vent the crankcase, and allow the oil droplets to fall out of it, and collect the oil in the jug. You can recycle the oil from the jug back into the engine every day or two.
'87 Tercel 4wd SR5 (current engine swap project)
'84 Tercel 4wd (daily driver, with on going mods)
'92 Mazda MPV 4wd (wife's daily driver)
'85 Tercel 4wd DLX auto(daughter's daily driver)
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MrWrench
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Re: Fresh Weber and head replacement - oil weaping from exhaust?

Post by MrWrench »

I understand. Thank you Petros. I am going to call the machine shop on Monday and see what they will quote to do the work.
I found a few engines about 2 1/2 hours away on car-part.com for about $250. Don't know if I want to risk it or not.
Any links or places to find .030 over pistons and rings? Thinking about just having the machine shop do the cast iron work and assembling the rest myself.

Just sucks bad. Hopefully I'll be able to get it done in time for the rally in July.

Thanks again everyone for all of your help!
1984 SR5. Lifted offroader with a snorkel. Aka "Thunderbucket"
1985 SR5. Daily driver. Aka "Spud"
1986 SR5. Dakar Rally clone build.
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MrWrench
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Re: Fresh Weber and head replacement - oil weaping from exhaust?

Post by MrWrench »

Well, the local machine shop wants $1,000+ for just the bottom end re-done and that's with me providing all the bearings and seals and everything but the pistons and rings.
They said if I bring in pistons, they can clean and bore the block to match for $200. I'll probably have them press the pistons on so I can just slap it together.

I feel like that's pretty high for the full rebuild, but I suppose it's a lot of work.

There's two junkyards about 2 1/2 hours from me that have complete 3A engines.
One is $275 and the other is $300.

Would it be worth my time to try this route for a junkyard engine? I emailed both places asked for the condition of these engines and if there was any sort of guarantee or warranty on them. I've never purchased a junkyard engine before. It feels kinda risky to do, but I don't really have the $1,000 to get mine done.
But it would be approximately the same as a junkyard engine if I pay to get the machine work done and can find oversized pistons and rings

What is your guys thoughts?
1984 SR5. Lifted offroader with a snorkel. Aka "Thunderbucket"
1985 SR5. Daily driver. Aka "Spud"
1986 SR5. Dakar Rally clone build.
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Petros
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Re: Fresh Weber and head replacement - oil weaping from exhaust?

Post by Petros »

usually if the crank never run dry, you can just replace the bearings at standard size. And you can just go for over bore. Get the pistons first so they can match the size with the correct clearance (tell them to go to the small end of the factory clearance range).

you can hand polish the journals with 400 grit wet and dry paper yourself (you cut strips and than wrap a cord aound the journal with the sand paper). works well and usually the toyota crank is very durable. if the crank is badly scoured you might as well replace the engine, machining the crank will add too much cost. you might consider just getting a replacement crank from the wrecking yard if the journals are in good shape (smooth and shinny). Usually that costs less than having them regrind and rebalance the bad one.

A whole used engine might be worth it, but you usually can not even run the engine before you buy it. Most will take it back if it is bad, but you have to install it, put oil in it, and than run it to know if it is any good. if bad, you have to pull it out and take it back.

one thing you can do to reduce the risk, if it is a self service wrecking yard: pull the engine, pull off the head and the oil pan: inspect the cylinder bore, and remove some of the connecting rod caps to inspect the bearings and journals. if the connecting rod bearings and journals are in good shape, the mains will be too and there is no reason to pull them (most of the wear on bearings is always on the smaller connecting rod bearings, #3 or #4 will tell you everything you need to know). New standard bearings are also cheap if necessary, as long as the journals are in good condition. than you can also pull the pistons and install new standard size rings and give it a light cylinder hone (not too much, just to break the glaze). Rings are only about $25.

if going for a complete engine, consider finding a 4ac (any year should fit), more common and more power. you will have to swap everything over, so do not pay extra for intake/exhaust/mounts etc, you can not use them.

check over junk yard engines carefully, when I went looking for a 4ac after I gave up on trying to get reliable power out of the 3ac, I pull out three before finding a good one:

the first one had a connecting rod through the side of the block (did not see it until we had it part way out, my friend helping me pointed at it and said "I do not think that is supposed to be that way").

the next one looked good, we pulled it, dropped the oil pan, and found the #4 connecting rod bearing completely gone (only bluish shredded metal where is supposed to have a bearing), crank shot, and after we pulled the head for good measure, the piston had been hammering on the head because of the extra clearance in the bearing (the amazing thing was someone kept driving it after it was going "BANG! BANG! BANG!"...and must have asked "why is my engine making that funny noise?"-so it ended up at the wrecking yard). third engine looked rebuildable, but still took more than I planned to make it good after I got it all the way apart.

If you can not check out the engine before you buy it, even with a warranty, not sure I would want to risk all that effort to find I have to return it.

another thought is you might see if you can buy just a short block, and reuse your own head on it. that might be less, used to be you can get a used short block for about $100. if the bore and rod bearings are all good condition, that would be a bargain. even if you have to replace the rings (well worth it).
'87 Tercel 4wd SR5 (current engine swap project)
'84 Tercel 4wd (daily driver, with on going mods)
'92 Mazda MPV 4wd (wife's daily driver)
'85 Tercel 4wd DLX auto(daughter's daily driver)
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MrWrench
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Re: Fresh Weber and head replacement - oil weaping from exhaust?

Post by MrWrench »

I did a bit of searching for a 4A engine on car-part.com and cannot find one for under $500 that's less than a 5 hour drive.
I think I'm going to go the route of having the machine shop match the pistons. I ordered some .020 pistons and rings on eBay yesterday for $48. Another gasket kit from DNJ is $38 and their end of the work will be ~$200.

I am going to print off the engine removal and engine rebuild portion of the manual in a few days. Hopefully all will go well and I won't destroy everything. I will post some update pictures this weekend along with any questions I will most likely have.

The manual states to remove the engine and trans together. Is it any easier to just pull the engine out and leave the trans in the vehicle?

Thank you again Petros and everyone else for all of your help on this forum and with all of my dumb questions!
1984 SR5. Lifted offroader with a snorkel. Aka "Thunderbucket"
1985 SR5. Daily driver. Aka "Spud"
1986 SR5. Dakar Rally clone build.
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Re: Fresh Weber and head replacement - oil weaping from exhaust?

Post by Petros »

some pull both engine and trans, I have done it both ways and find removing just the engine is less effort. since you are pulling it apart, remove the head, alternator, power steering pump, AC compressor, etc (no need to remove hoses or fluid, leave them in the engine compartment tied to the side). it will make pulling the engine easier without all the extra stuff on it. the short block is light enough it can be lifted out with a beam and two people lifting each end, no need to rent a hoist. I have also done is solo with a cheap and simple "come-a-long" type hand winch over my garage beam, or with a wood frame I built that stands over the engine bay. saves money.
'87 Tercel 4wd SR5 (current engine swap project)
'84 Tercel 4wd (daily driver, with on going mods)
'92 Mazda MPV 4wd (wife's daily driver)
'85 Tercel 4wd DLX auto(daughter's daily driver)
'01 Honda Civic (other daughter's daily driver)
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MrWrench
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Re: Fresh Weber and head replacement - oil weaping from exhaust?

Post by MrWrench »

I would rather pull just the engine and leave the trans installed.

This may be a little bit of a dumb question, but it I remove the head and all the accessories prior to removing the engine, could I use a hoist and some straps with head bolts in the block to lift the engine? Or is there a better spot for the straps? I have a dirt cheap facebook marketplace special hoist. It is covered in stickers and spray paint, but has worked every time it's been used.
1984 SR5. Lifted offroader with a snorkel. Aka "Thunderbucket"
1985 SR5. Daily driver. Aka "Spud"
1986 SR5. Dakar Rally clone build.
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Re: Fresh Weber and head replacement - oil weaping from exhaust?

Post by Petros »

Yes, you can pull it that way. I would not use a head bolt, they are reusable quality bolts and you do not want to bend any of them. but a short bolt with the same thread would be fine. there are other places you can bolt a hook to as well. I usually lift from one front engine mount, and a hook I bolt on the other side of the block at the rear of the engine. there is plenty of places to add a hook (use the one that is on the head). I have also put webbing around the whole engine, the short block is light enough that a regular webbing tie down strap makes a good lifting harness (it will get greasy, so do not use a new one). short bock stripped of external accessories weighes something like 180 lbs or so (I can lift it with my bare hands).
'87 Tercel 4wd SR5 (current engine swap project)
'84 Tercel 4wd (daily driver, with on going mods)
'92 Mazda MPV 4wd (wife's daily driver)
'85 Tercel 4wd DLX auto(daughter's daily driver)
'01 Honda Civic (other daughter's daily driver)
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MrWrench
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Re: Fresh Weber and head replacement - oil weaping from exhaust?

Post by MrWrench »

I picked up a few extra bolts from Menards. Both for lifting the engine out and 4 more for an engine stand. The engine is currently out and most of the way apart. Tomorrow I am going to mark up the caps and block with a punch and get the engine apart and carefully laid out on a table. Along with checking the block for warpage.

It came out fairly easily, much easier than I was anticipating. It is definitely very oily everywhere so hopefully I can pressure wash or wipe down everything in the bay and all the accessories while the block is at the machine shop. Plus I have to clean up a few gasket surfaces.

I am pretty excited to get this far and hopefully the assembly and installation goes as smoothly.

Thank you all for your help!
1984 SR5. Lifted offroader with a snorkel. Aka "Thunderbucket"
1985 SR5. Daily driver. Aka "Spud"
1986 SR5. Dakar Rally clone build.
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Petros
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Re: Fresh Weber and head replacement - oil weaping from exhaust?

Post by Petros »

Good for you. you are on your way.

once you get the pistons out, you might verify the cylinder wear by taking off one ring from the piston and push it down the bore about an inch from the top (use the piston to push it squarely). than inspect the ring gap. it should be about 0.007" when new. likely it will be ten times that or more.

it would be an indication of the cylinder and ring wear.
'87 Tercel 4wd SR5 (current engine swap project)
'84 Tercel 4wd (daily driver, with on going mods)
'92 Mazda MPV 4wd (wife's daily driver)
'85 Tercel 4wd DLX auto(daughter's daily driver)
'01 Honda Civic (other daughter's daily driver)
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MrWrench
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Re: Fresh Weber and head replacement - oil weaping from exhaust?

Post by MrWrench »

I just got back inside from disassembling the engine. I will swing back to the garage in a little bit and try what you had mentioned Petros.

I do have a few other questions.
First thing, the manual states that there is 3 standard size bearings. My bearings that came in my DNJ kit do not appear to have any different sizes. The casting stamped on the bottom of my block reads
2232 and I can't see a 5th one like the manual states.
Will these be OK to use?
IMG_20190526_152746.jpg
IMG_20190526_152900.jpg

Second question, I am working on resealing everything else extra that is off of the engine right now. I see there is a few extra parts I can not find where they belong. I'm assuming the blue seal is for the cam gear and the smaller o-ring is for the distributor
But here's 4 silver rings and two smaller paper gaskets?
I am assuming the o-rings are for the timing belt, but 6 that are the same size?

I don't have the block here to search it and see where they may be, I would really hate to get this engine back together and have it leak like crazy because I didn't replace a small gasket I missed.
IMG_20190528_182922.jpg
Lastly, here is some pictures of the bearings. The ones on the crank to the block look pretty nice, in my opinion. But the ones to the pistons definitely look worn.
I will attach a picture of the rings too. All 4 lower compression rings seemed to be very stuck. Also, the oil ring on any of the pistons does not turn. Though I will admit I do not know if they normally do or not. I'm assuming when my weber was tuned incorrect, I washed the cylinder walls and caused them to stick?
IMG_20190526_152749.jpg
IMG_20190526_152751.jpg
IMG_20190526_152754.jpg
IMG_20190526_152759.jpg
Pictures of rings, obviously. Haha.
Notice how to are in the same spot?
IMG_20190526_132230.jpg
IMG_20190526_132236.jpg
IMG_20190526_132240.jpg

Also, I fully removed all of the remaining AC components in the car. Is it possible to wire up that other fan to run as a secondary engine fan? Obviously it wouldn't hit the radiator, but it might keep the bay cooler? If that's a stupid waste of time, I won't be offended if someone tells me that. Haha.


Edit: definitely a noticeable lip on cylinder one. It would catch with my fingernail pretty bad. Just dropped the block off at the machine shop. Going to have them bore it .020 over and press the pistons on for me. I opted out of them cleaning it once they are done because it will save me some cash. I'm going to hot tank the block at my work again to get the gasket surfaces and rest of the cast a little cleaner. Then I can run a tap the bolt holes on the side of the block, tube brush the stud holes and sand all the gasket surfaces.
Hopefully I'll be able to put it back together this weekend and installed on Sunday. Guess we'll see what happens. thank you again everyone for all of your help!
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1984 SR5. Lifted offroader with a snorkel. Aka "Thunderbucket"
1985 SR5. Daily driver. Aka "Spud"
1986 SR5. Dakar Rally clone build.
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