Safety Concern

[wminman]

Hi All. I am a proud owner of a 1984 Tercel SR5. I searched for a year before I found my dream car, and drove it home to Montana. It's the perfect Montana vehicle, and I've put many miles on it with no issue. Until last week, when while driving my kids to school, I was nearly T-boned by a car who did not see me, did not yield, and didn't slow down at an intersection. Needless to say, it scared the crap out of me. My two little ones were in the back seat, in their car seats. It got me thinking...is my car safe? In terms of my own driving it feels more than safe, but when thinking about other drivers, it got me nervous. It is smaller than 90% of new cars, it makes me wonder if it is seen as easily by other drivers. And obviously it has no airbags. Also, the back seat has only lap belts. I decided to ask on this forum because I could find almost nothing online on safety...more specifically how it responds in a crash or other impact. Any input or advice is much appreciated. Thanks!

[NWMO]

wminman,

The search function isn't half bad, takes some getting used to. Here is a link to an old post discussing some opinions on safety.

viewtopic.php?f=15&t=12771&p=98678&hili ... ety#p98678

My little ones are now big ones (16 and 18), so this is less of a concern for me. However, my opinion is that new cars would certainly be safer in a severe accident of nearly any kind. I tend to agree with Petros, that some of the new safety items/techniques don't end up being a benefit and for myself, are not worth the aggravation, etc.

Chris

[splatterdog]

Any car can be safe with motorcycle rules, EVERYONE is trying to kill you at all times. At least with a T4 you can see better than any other newer car on the road.

[NWMO]

Any car can be safe with motorcycle rules, EVERYONE is trying to kill you at all times. At least with a T4 you can see better than any other newer car on the road.

splatter - you are right on with the poor visibility with newer cars. My wife's Dodge Caravan or my parents SUVs (Ford & Hyundai) are all difficult to see blind spots, etc. They count on little lights in mirrors or elsewhere to let you know somebody/something is near the vehicle. This is where I would rather be able to see than count on a warning system (though the back up camera on dad's Edge is pretty handy). It will be interesting to see how today's new cars perform 30+ years from now. When the warning systems and cameras fail, folks will still be trying to drive them, good luck then!

Chris

[ARCHINSTL]

@ wminman -
I think the key for a parent here is the consideration of the most important part of your life - namely, your children.

The T4WD that we all love and care about is, simply stating, lacking in safety features for today's driving (encounters with large p'ups and SUVs of any shape/visibility/cell phones,/inattentive drivers/etc. that is simply part of "driving life encounters" nowadays.

My '60s-'70s era with kids had us holding them in pumpkin seats/early child seats/no belts with pretty much no problems.
But - that was then and this is now, with concomitant hazards that simply did not exist in "my era" or even when my gkids were little, riding in Goldie in the late '90s.

This is a difficult decision for a parent with little kids and an affection for a T4WD - or any '70s-'80s-'90s vehicle in hauling them around.
Many of us here do not have to face that conumdrum - but some do, and I (We) do not envy them ...
I know - not much help for you, but that is where it is.
Tom M.

[Petros]

air bags do not appreciably increase safety (there has been no staticial proof of that overall) and they are harmful for children, often causing death. consider they are explosive devices that go off in your face, sometimes when the are not supposed to. Like anything else, the can and do malfuction. every year there are recalls on new cars for airbags deploying when they are not supposed to (like you are driving down the road, and suddently "boom"). That is as likely to kill or injury you by itself. but they never include that in their "safety" records.

I was in engineering school when their safety was debated, and enough politicians palms were finally waxed with campaign contribution to get it past congress (I later read the story of the inventor, he got investors to raise money to pay off the politicians so they would pass the law giving him a monopoly). It was only recently that it was disclosed that the car manufacturers were paying off victims of serious injury and deaths caused by airbags, many times they go off when not inteneded. with the pay off came non-disclosure agreements. Basic hush money.

also consider, there are racing events in almost every county in this country almost every week, yet deaths in racing cars these days is rather rare, and news worthy. and not one race car has air bags. if they are actually safer, racing organizatinos would require them in race cars.

If you love your Tercel and want to improve safety you can buy after market seat belts that provide better protection than factory ones. you can even get rear ones with shoulder belts, you will have to adapt them to fit, but you can buy them.

if you really want to add more strength to the car, add a simple roll bar just behind the front seats, it will stiffen the whole frame. Though I think the Tercel chassis is actually fairly stout compared to many newer cars that they have been trying to make lighter with lots of plastic and less metal in the bodies.

And as pointed out, the most important factor in your safety is your own driving habits and vigilance.

[nerdsrule]

I may also point out the stock brakes on these little wagons, as has been discussed at length are fully insufficient. Upgrade your brakes, upgrade your tires to something 175 wide or wider. Prevention is the best safety in all cases, so shorted your stopping distance, and improve your handling. Also drive as though your car weighs 1900 lbs amongst a sea of 3-7k lb vehicles, because that is the reality. All of the new technology that goes into designing engine compartments to "crumple" in specific ways, to absorb the energy of a head-on, and front overlap crahses did not get built into our cars. Our doors are not reinforced, and in a rollover I'm really not sure how well the structure of the roof would hold up, good visibility means we also have era-appropriately meager a-b-c pillar reinforcement.

In short, yea, pretty dangerous relatively speaking, but not because of lack of airbags. (Race cars have scary crashes, no airbags. Look up Jeremey Foley's pikes peak crash in 2012, both drivers walked away.) The emphasis for all us t4wd enthusiasts, as with any old car, is the precautionary principle, traction and braking really being the low hanging fruit here. Also shoulder belts in back, and simply not having loose floppy things rolling around the car, which we should do with any car. Empty glass bottles can turn into projectiles. Get a cargo net, and brace everything as far forward as it can get, so as to limit the momemtum it builds up in a fast stop or crash. I do think about caging my tercel, but thats a solid effort to do properly, and is less common cars where you are trying to keep most trim pieces and cabin amenities in tact. I would love to see an example of this done well, and retain the look and feel of a tercel 4wd inside.

[The Professor]

also consider, there are racing events in almost every county in this country almost every week, yet deaths in racing cars these days is rather rare, and news worthy. and not one race car has air bags. if they are actually safer, racing organizatinos would require them in race cars.

MASSIVE eyeroll... Human bodies were never designed to bounce around inside a closed space. Maybe the fact that road car passengers are held down by a simple two or three point harness verses the five or six point harnesses and rigid racing seats, HANS devices, ROLL CAGES and of course, course workers to signal danger to other drivers has anything to do with safety of road cars vs racecars? Of the fact that everyone is in the race for the same reason and there are no cell phones?

You're comparing apples to sea cucumbers Petros...

[splatterdog]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RnyhkBU1yaw

[NWMO]

also consider, there are racing events in almost every county in this country almost every week, yet deaths in racing cars these days is rather rare, and news worthy. and not one race car has air bags. if they are actually safer, racing organizatinos would require them in race cars.

MASSIVE eyeroll... Human bodies were never designed to bounce around inside a closed space. Maybe the fact that road car passengers are held down by a simple two or three point harness verses the five or six point harnesses and rigid racing seats, HANS devices, ROLL CAGES and of course, course workers to signal danger to other drivers has anything to do with safety of road cars vs racecars? Of the fact that everyone is in the race for the same reason and there are no cell phones?

You're comparing apples to sea cucumbers Petros...

Additional portion of Petros' comment provided:

also consider, there are racing events in almost every county in this country almost every week, yet deaths in racing cars these days is rather rare, and news worthy. and not one race car has air bags. if they are actually safer, racing organizatinos would require them in race cars.

If you love your Tercel and want to improve safety you can buy after market seat belts that provide better protection than factory ones. you can even get rear ones with shoulder belts, you will have to adapt them to fit, but you can buy them.

if you really want to add more strength to the car, add a simple roll bar just behind the front seats, it will stiffen the whole frame. Though I think the Tercel chassis is actually fairly stout compared to many newer cars that they have been trying to make lighter with lots of plastic and less metal in the bodies.

Professor,

If the only goal of your post is to "jab" Petros, please "copy/paste" to O/T. His post includes some valid solutions to the OP's concerns/questions, your's, not so much.

Chris

[wminman]

Thank you everyone for the feedback and suggestions. I genuinely appreciate it. As to the seatbelt upgrade..does anybody know how I go about that? I looked into it when I first bought my T4WD and no one was willing to install them (liability I suppose). I'd love some tips to figure out at least that piece of safety for my beloved little car. Thanks!

[NWMO]

wmimman,

The following link is a decent start, they may even provide proffesional installation, I didn’t dig that far. At a minimum, they would likely have a recommendation on who/what type of business may help you, if you don’t want to tackle yourself. I’m sure there are others as well, this just happens to be where a quick search led me.

https://www.seatbeltplanet.com/p-35852- ... t-101.html

If you scroll clear to the bottom of the linked page, under “Company”, they have a how to link and a few you-tube videos for typical seatbelt replacment.

Chris

[NWMO]

A fun video providing some history and giving the basics if you decide to tackle yourself.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2aBd8FBNpa8

Chris

[nerdsrule]

It could be easy-ish to find a good mounting point for shoulder belts for the outer seats in back on the frame of the vehicle in a solid, suitable position. the middle seat is a lot tougher, since you are either mounting to the ceiling, or to the seat itself. Once you fasten the upper shoulder belt mount to a seat you raise a whole new set of questions about tear-out force of the whole seat. The strength of the seat mounting brackets (where and how a seat bolts to a vehicle) decrease when a belted person gets thrown forward violently in an accident and essentially acts as a lever from the top of the seat, instead of just from the waist. This could be as simple as a seat mounting hardware upgrade with a decent backing plate to disperse forces where the seat mounts to the car, and importantly, where an upper belt mount could safely go on the seat back, if at all. This gets into some risky territory and major safety modifications, for the express purpose of the OP feeling unsafe with children in a car and wanting to feel better. these seats were never designed with shoulder belts in mind. Could all three rear seats get shoulder belts? Heck yea, but thats your own modification and risk assessment. I have done similar mods, but with solid metal bench seats that dont fold, and plenty of space in the box sections to weld reinforcement and disperse loads over a larger area. Could just throwing three seat-to-seat mounted belts improve safety even if it isnt ideal? maybe. Better hope the seat can withstand new and different kinds of force from what it was designed to do.

Returning to the outside seats, I would think this is much easier, and safer as the reinforcement it takes to install a new belt is remarkably simple, with a backing plate that always seems super small, but is proven to be safe. Most importantly, you are not relying as much on the strength of the seat-to-car connection, or of the seat itself any more that with the simple lap belt. one thing to keep in mind here is that car mounted upper shoulder belt connections can get in the way when you do want to fold the seat, but with some figuring probably wont stop it from being possible to work around.
Just my $.02. Good idea, but needs to be planned and executed well, particularly for that rear middle seat.

[splatterdog]

If I recall correctly there is already bolt holes hiding behind the trim for a shoulder belt. If so, perhaps just about any 80's Toyota seat belt could work?