Safety Concern

General discussion about our beloved Tercel 4WD cars
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Petros
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Re: Safety Concern

Post by Petros »

The Professor wrote: Thu Jan 24, 2019 8:09 am Human bodies were never designed to bounce around inside a closed space. Maybe the fact that road car passengers are held down by a simple two or three point harness verses the five or six point harnesses and rigid racing seats,
That is exactly my point! did you miss it? the safest you can be in an accident is when you stay firmly in your seat. Better seatbelts, like those four point systems used in race cars, are the single best and easiest thing you can do to improve safety in automobiles. far safer, more reliable and less costly than complex and dangerous airbags/explosive devices. you can buy them online, they are less costly than you might think.

A full roll cage will also improve safety, but that is very costly and inconvenient, and in reality not likely to ever be necessary. It might be helpful in a really rare accident, but also very unlikely.
'87 Tercel 4wd SR5 (current engine swap project)
'84 Tercel 4wd (daily driver, with on going mods)
'92 Mazda MPV 4wd (wife's daily driver)
'85 Tercel 4wd DLX auto(daughter's daily driver)
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Petros
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Re: Safety Concern

Post by Petros »

splatterdog wrote: Thu Jan 24, 2019 3:06 pm If I recall correctly there is already bolt holes hiding behind the trim for a shoulder belt. If so, perhaps just about any 80's Toyota seat belt could work?
this is exactly correct, many countries required shoulder belts for the rear seat passangers before required in the USA. The Tercel4wd have the mounts under the trim panels. perhaps there are some OEM suppliers of replacement seat belts in Europe or Aus that sell them? Or if you go to an off road shop they likely can fabricate some mounts to bolt into the side of the third column where the mounts are located.
'87 Tercel 4wd SR5 (current engine swap project)
'84 Tercel 4wd (daily driver, with on going mods)
'92 Mazda MPV 4wd (wife's daily driver)
'85 Tercel 4wd DLX auto(daughter's daily driver)
'01 Honda Civic (other daughter's daily driver)
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Petros
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Re: Safety Concern

Post by Petros »

nerdsrule wrote: Thu Jan 24, 2019 7:42 am I may also point out the stock brakes on these little wagons, as has been discussed at length are fully insufficient. Upgrade your brakes, upgrade your tires to something 175 wide or wider. Prevention is the best safety in all cases, so shorted your stopping distance, and improve your handling. .... All of the new technology that goes into designing engine compartments to "crumple" in specific ways, to absorb the energy of a head-on, and front overlap crahses did not get built into our cars. Our doors are not reinforced, and in a rollover I'm really not sure how well the structure of the roof would hold up, good visibility means we also have era-appropriately meager a-b-c pillar reinforcement.
I agree with installing the upgraded brakes and better wheels and tires of course. but you are incorrect about the safety of the passenger compartment.

Our cars are designed with crumple zones, side door guards, and rollover protection. This as been required since about 1973-74 on all cars sold in the USA. Newer cars may offer better designs to a newer standard, but the Tercel was designed with these requirements as well. the 1985 model years and newer have a few more features as well (improve steering column protection among others). likely the passenger compartment is as well protected as newer cars, if not more so. The newer cars depend on multiple air bag deployment to meet safety standards (17 or more airbags in modern cars) our older Tercels do not.

One thing our cars have that none of the newer cars offer, better visibility in all directions. That alone is an important safety feature. YOu can not get good visibility with the new body styles, I have been spoiled by the Tercel4wd, every time I get in a new car I feel I can't see a thing out the back, or around those darn thick A pillars (that contain those explosive devices) right in my face.
'87 Tercel 4wd SR5 (current engine swap project)
'84 Tercel 4wd (daily driver, with on going mods)
'92 Mazda MPV 4wd (wife's daily driver)
'85 Tercel 4wd DLX auto(daughter's daily driver)
'01 Honda Civic (other daughter's daily driver)
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nerdsrule
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Re: Safety Concern

Post by nerdsrule »

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xidhx_f-ouU Not a direct comparison, but you get the point. Petros, I agree, I should give more credit to the way our cars were built, but I cant totally agree that more airbags=less metal. To the best of my knowledge, airbags were added to reduce injury in crashes by keeping people from bouncing around, but they do not add any structural integrity. They only work if the cabin is mostly intact.

That aside, for me the point is just drive defensively in this car. I also have a GTI, I rip around in that thing. I do not drive the tercel like the GTI, or even close, because there are people in GIGANTIC volvos (like my mom, bless her heart, can hardly see at dusk) and mini coopers that are now gigantic coopers, and bajillions of huge trucks, and outbacks the size of old suburbans, except heavier, and my brother, driving 90, in traffic, in his 4500 lb tesla 3.

As ray and tom used to say "dont drive like my brother"

Pumped to hear about those holes hiding under the trim for belts. I actually have a classic car shop near me that does a variety of belts for anything from my dads '62 porsche 356b, to old trucks and maybe out little wagons. They can do rough color matching of webbing and trim bits, and if there are potential mount points this would not be terribly expensive. So in addition to 4x4 shops, maybe classic car shops or even camper van upfitters.
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Re: Safety Concern

Post by The Professor »

NWMO wrote: Thu Jan 24, 2019 8:53 amProfessor,

If the only goal of your post is to "jab" Petros, please "copy/paste" to O/T. His post includes some valid solutions to the OP's concerns/questions, your's, not so much.
There was no "jab" intended at Petros specifically, he's easily the most T4-knowledgeable, helpful member on the site. I have no beef with him, or anyone else on this site.

That said, comparing the safety of a road car to a racecar, then saying airbags would be installed in racecars "if they were so safe" is just a ridiculous mental exercise. We all know why racecar accidents are so survivable, extreme safety measures that are impractical for the road and most importantly, a controlled environment. It was an asinine argument to begin with.

To keep this post on topic and to stay out of trouble, OP, the fact of the matter is that new cars have more mass. They have had the benefit of computer aided design, increasing crash standards as well as improved performance. There is nothing short of installing a full roll cage and heavily reinforcing the unibody that will improve survivability of our Tercels.

Honestly, the best way to keep you and your family safe is to buy a newer car with proven crash test results.

1980 Tercel crash test - https://youtu.be/gpa5brn3SKM?t=1m13s
2019 Subaru Ascent crash test - https://youtu.be/iOgNTpDQ2hU?t=1m12s

Both are full frontal impacts, but watch how the door of the Tercel buckles, how the steering column rises and strikes the driver in the face. The Subaru's door/door frame don't really deform at all and the AIRBAG keeps both the driver and passenger from impacting the steering wheel (which doesn't appear to move at all) or the dashboard.

OP, my suggestion if you are truly worried about this would be to review crash ratings and buy the highest rated vehicle you can afford.
1975 Subaru SuperStar wagon
1984 Subaru Turbo-Traction wagon & hardtop
1987 Subaru RX 3-door
1987 Subaru RX Type-RA 3-door
1987 Toyota Tercel SR5 wagon
1999 Subaru Forester S
2002 Subaru WRX sedan
2019 Subaru Outback 2.5i Limited
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NWMO
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Re: Safety Concern

Post by NWMO »

wminman,

To hopefully sum up some helpful posts (thank you all) and share what I understand from brief research.

Our cars, while majestic in their own way, will never compare to the "safety" of the new vehicles without extreme, expensive modification. For most of us, that is ok.

I believe race cars do NOT include air bags for a multitude of reasons, but primarily, they do not provide a tangible benefit when a structural roll cage, race ready (multi-point) body harness and HANS device is standard equipment. The race car driver virtually never leaves the confines of the seat, even during an accident, due to the body restraint, thus, air-bags aren't needed. In some of the worst accidents, there's not much left besides the cage, restraints and often marginally injured driver.

But, the extreme body harness, HANS, etc. is NOT practical for daily driving. With everything on, ready to race, you can't turn around and talk to the kids, let alone check to see if it is clear to reverse. And honestly, I don't want to put a helmet on every time I drive (unless on a motorcyle)!! For this reason, car manufacturers must try to improve safety (sometimes in spite of the drivers). Thus, systems are designed to supplement a sometimes insufficient or NOT USED safety restraint (seatbelt). Air bags, while not ideal, can be installed and deployed regardless of the driver's input, providing some safety to drivers/occupants, even the most obtuse.

It is up to each owner/operator to decide what level of risk they are willing to take for themselves and their occupants. There are certain things (at a cost) that can make the old Tercel safer, but accident safety will never compare to the new vehicles. I'm just over fifty years old and have been in at least 4 "serious" automobile accidents that include contact with other vehicles or in one case a big ditch AND one motorcycle accident going roughly 70 mph (fortunately just bouncing/sliding down the road with a helmet!). Relating to a common statement above, in all but ONE accident, I was the primary or contributing factor in the accident. Only once was I T-boned by another driver with no fault, all the other times included ME not being attentive due to carelessness, in a hurry, sleepiness or inebriation. When I got married and decided to start a family, I chose to sell the motorcycle, because they are inherently more dangerous due to extremes of the above discussion, no restrain, no protection. That said, I believe I have another 10-20 years of motorcycle riding in my future between the boys entering college and my feeling I can still operate a motorcycle safely. Each of us must continually evaluate our risk tolerance in making decisions.

Good luck with your Tercel and decisions wminman.

Chris

Professor - in my opinion, there is no way a MASSIVE eye roll or the word "asinine" can be anything other than a "jab", just sayin'. Thanks for the video links, the visual helps me better appreciate the risks and shortcomings of our little treasures.
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Petros
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Re: Safety Concern

Post by Petros »

nerdsrule wrote: Fri Jan 25, 2019 6:37 am ...because there are people in GIGANTIC volvos (like my mom, bless her heart, can hardly see at dusk) and mini coopers that are now gigantic coopers, and bajillions of huge trucks, and outbacks the size of old suburbans, except heavier, and my brother, driving 90, in traffic, in his 4500 lb tesla 3....
one of the reasons the new cars weigh so much is the 17 to 22 airbag explosive devices in them! along with a lot of other federally mandated (and monopoly protected) unwanted junk. the lowest cost new car costs about $20,000, and weighs about 3,000 lbs! the first gen honda CRX I bought for $75 only weighed about 1800 lbs, a collage friend of mine had a tiny Austin bug eyed Sprit that weighed about 1100 lbs (fully street legal!). These make our 2600 lb Tercel4wd look massive.

and the "mini" coopers, I have come to call "maxicoopers", the REAL minis could fit inside the rear hatch on the new ones.

I once owned a 1962 Porsche 356B as well. One of my project cars when I was in collage, simple and fun to drive. Now worth about 12 times what I sold it for in 1983 after it was restored. That car only weighed about 1700 lbs as I recall too.
'87 Tercel 4wd SR5 (current engine swap project)
'84 Tercel 4wd (daily driver, with on going mods)
'92 Mazda MPV 4wd (wife's daily driver)
'85 Tercel 4wd DLX auto(daughter's daily driver)
'01 Honda Civic (other daughter's daily driver)
The Professor
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Re: Safety Concern

Post by The Professor »

NWMO wrote:Professor - in my opinion, there is no way a MASSIVE eye roll or the word "asinine" can be anything other than a "jab", just sayin'. Thanks for the video links, the visual helps me better appreciate the risks and shortcomings of our little treasures.
Fair point, thank you for letting me know. Each web forum is it's own little community, some are more tolerant of curmudgeons than others. I'll make sure I tone it down going forward, I have a low tolerance for misinformation, forgive my terse replies.
Petros wrote: Sat Jan 26, 2019 1:54 amThe lowest cost new car costs about $20,000, and weighs about 3,000 lbs! the first gen honda CRX I bought for $75 only weighed about 1800 lbs, a collage friend of mine had a tiny Austin bug eyed Sprit that weighed about 1100 lbs (fully street legal!). These make our 2600 lb Tercel4wd look massive.
15 seconds of Google-fu produces: 2018 Chevy Spark $13,925-$18,350 - curb weight is 2,246-2,312 lbs.



Also, as it pertains to safety equipment in the 80's, 4WDs were not required to have energy absorbing bumpers. I'm not sure what all the differences are between the T4 and a 2WD Tercel but on all the 80's Subarus I have crawled under, the 2WDs have shocks on their bumpers and the 4WDs use rigid steel mounts to attach the bumpers. The BRATs (you remember those, right?) went a step further, because they were 4WD MPVs, they didn't need side-impact bars in the doors, while all the other 4WDs (wagon, hatch, sedan, hardtop) had steel bars welded into the door skins for side impact protection.
1975 Subaru SuperStar wagon
1984 Subaru Turbo-Traction wagon & hardtop
1987 Subaru RX 3-door
1987 Subaru RX Type-RA 3-door
1987 Toyota Tercel SR5 wagon
1999 Subaru Forester S
2002 Subaru WRX sedan
2019 Subaru Outback 2.5i Limited
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Re: Safety Concern

Post by irowiki »

The biggest reason we got rid of our Tercel Wagons was the lack of shoulder belts in the back which means you can't use booster seats which are legally required now for all kids under 8 years old and like 60 pounds. We ended up with Camry Wagons which are basically a big sister!


Other contributing factors include:

Crash Safety: (as seen in those above videos) I drive, a lot, for work, 30,000 miles a year or more. The drivers around here are terrible. Most vehicles around here are large SUVs or giant Pick up trucks.

Lack of performance: Trying to get the car to keep up with everyone else resulted in bad fuel economy at the higher elevations I live at (I had one perfect Tercel that would get good fuel economy no matter what, was never able to replicate it). Also, there are so many hills and passes and such, you'd have to double your travel time to get anywhere.

Reliability: Let's face it, a 35 year old car is never going to be as reliable as something newer when you just need to jump in the car and go. There's always something that needs fixing or adjusting or fiddling, lack of time to constantly fiddle with a carburetor car once the second baby was born didn't help at all

Cold / hot starting performance: I live where it can be in the single digits for weeks at a time in the winter. Also where it can be in the 100's in the summer. After several years I just wanted a car that would start in all temperatures the first time.


We still miss our Tercels (Especially Buck) and pine after one every now and then.
Former Tercel Enthusiast (not a practical family car anymore but they still have a place in my heart)

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