New Member - Ignition & Steering Wheel Questions

General discussion about our beloved Tercel 4WD cars
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Synchronizor
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Joined: Sun Apr 22, 2018 10:21 pm
My tercel:: 86 Tercel
Location: Eastern Washington

New Member - Ignition & Steering Wheel Questions

Post by Synchronizor »

Hello all; new member here considering his first Tercel. My reliable, 300k+ workhorse of a van is laid up at the dealership with a bad ABS system, and it's going nowhere fast. I'm getting a little too much flack for borrowing a family member's run-around Civic for so long, and so I'm in the market for a simple, inexpensive "cockroach car" that I can rely on to get me to work and back when something fails on my main rig and I need a week or two to fix it. Possibly a fair-weather commuter to help save on gas, too.

Someone in the area is selling a 1986 Tercel wagon for about the right price, and from what I've read, these Tercels are everything I'm looking for from a mechanical standpoint. I dig the funky styling and good internal space, too. This one has under 100K miles on the clock, and a compression test came out pretty good, but it has a lot of little things that it'll need fixed before it's ready to hit the road on a regular basis - all fluids, some lights & other electrical stuff, plugs, filters, brake pads, etc. Nothing I'm unqualified to work on, that stuff is more a matter of trying to haggle the asking price down so that I don't nickel-and-dime myself to the moon making this thing usable.

There are, however, a couple things that have me puzzled and a bit concerned; and hours on Google haven't helped much. Folks here seem to have plenty of wrench time on their Tercels, so I'm hoping y'all may be able to shed some light before I commit to this retro wagon.

First and foremost, the #1 cylinder doesn't like to fire. The engine will start up easily enough, run steadily, and even move the vehicle around without much trouble; but it's clearly firing unevenly and down on power at low engine speeds. I pulled spark plug wires until I found the one that made no difference to the idle, and that was cylinder #1. With permission from the seller, I replaced the spark plug & plug wire for that cylinder, but that didn't seem to change anything. After driving around some though, the cylinder woke up and the engine settled down into a normal four-banger purr. Since all the other cylinders seem to run with no problems, my best guess is that there's an iffy contact in the distributor cap, and a bit of heat shifts things just enough to get it working. Has anyone else dealt with something like this?

Also, the steering wheel is seriously crooked on this thing. It handles fine, and steers equally well in either direction, but the wheel sits at least 75 degrees anti-clockwise when driving straight. Could someone have simply attached the wheel wrong at some point in the last 30+ years? Will this thing need major alignment work (it was in one minor accident that banged up the drivers-side front corner)? Or could this indicate stripped steering shaft splines or some other problem that might spell disaster on the freeway someday?

Finally (for now at least), can anyone help me find the location of the blinker relay in this thing? The diagram in the FSM (thanks to whoever scanned and uploaded that, by the way) isn't very clear.

Thanks in advance.
xirdneh
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My tercel:: 87 tercel 4x4 wagon w/reringed engine, 83 tercel 4x4 wagon w/salvaged engine and 4.1 Diff's
Location: seabeck, washington, USA

Re: New Member - Ignition & Steering Wheel Questions

Post by xirdneh »

Blinker relay or the flasher unit? Flasher is under dash on driverside of steering column. Easy to get at if you remove plastic trim under column
Pull steering wheel and recenter it. Not to difficult but will need to make a flatbar puller. Drill two holes in it to match tapped holes in wheel plate. I leave nut on but loosend and backed off to protect threads
Love those Tercell 4x4 wagons but they sure suffer from road noise.
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ARCHINSTL
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My tercel:: Goldie is a 1986 SR5 attualmente con Weber/also owned the first T4WD in STL in late '82
Location: Kirkwood, a 'burb of St. Louis

Re: New Member - Ignition & Steering Wheel Questions

Post by ARCHINSTL »

Welcome to the CLub! Wow - under 100K! Was it a tow-behind?
Many helpful peeps here!
Before fabricating a puller, just remove the nut and give the wheel a pull. Goldie's came off with just a slight tug. Of course, I do not know if it had ever been off before. When you reinstall it, put some anti-seize on it (or at least some grease), in the event you must remove it again at some time.
Tom M.
T4WD augury?
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LowBuckCanuck
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My tercel:: 1986 DLX 4wd Wagon "Jenny"

Re: New Member - Ignition & Steering Wheel Questions

Post by LowBuckCanuck »

Definitely buy it.
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rer233
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Re: New Member - Ignition & Steering Wheel Questions

Post by rer233 »

Problem with #1 cyl. is most likely the AAP diaph.
if it aint there, there's a good chance it won't break!
83 SR5 Silver/Blue (Snowmobile/work beater)-totaled but drivable
85 SR5 Blue
88 SR5 White (the 'good' one)-not anymore-totaled
87 fwd silver wagon a/t
87 4wd dx Cream (a/t- not anymore- now m/t)
Synchronizor
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My tercel:: 86 Tercel
Location: Eastern Washington

Re: New Member - Ignition & Steering Wheel Questions

Post by Synchronizor »

xirdneh wrote: Mon Apr 23, 2018 5:20 pm Blinker relay or the flasher unit?
Whichever one is the reason the turn signals & hazard switch don't do anything (besides the ones that are physically broken off).
rer233 wrote: Mon Apr 23, 2018 7:45 pm Problem with #1 cyl. is most likely the AAP diaph.
AAP is Auxiliary Acceleration Pump, right? Doesn't that just provide extra fuel when the engine is cold? Why would that only affect one cylinder?
ARCHINSTL wrote: Mon Apr 23, 2018 6:02 pm Welcome to the CLub! Wow - under 100K! Was it a tow-behind?
I don't know the full history, but I think it was just an in-town run-around, no long trips.
LowBuckCanuck wrote: Mon Apr 23, 2018 6:07 pm Definitely buy it.
I'd like to, but I'm hoping to talk the owner down. Full disclosure, it's a FWD model with an auto, and while the engine doesn't seem too worn, the car itself is pretty battered & neglected. In addition to the #1 misfire, it has broken & nonfunctioning lights, dry radiator, just a little dab of tar on the end of the oil dipstick, burned tranny fluid, bad thermostat (failed open, thankfully), alternator belt that looks like a dry creekbed, brake pads are worn down & the rotors feel slightly warped, the rear hatch opens by pulling on a string, EGR hose is in two complete pieces, the list goes on. Really nothing difficult, and it's a credit to these cars that it still gets around well, but I don't have a whole lot of money to spare. She was asking $600, and doesn't seem willing to go below $550. Changing all the fluids and fixing all the little issues is looking like it'll be another $300 on top of that, then I have to pay for tax, registration, & tabs (Someone told me to expect to pay $175 total for an out-of-state car, and of course, the DOL website is way too confusing & complicated for me to find any official fee estimate) and get insurance going. Am I being unreasonable thinking $450 would be fair, considering everything needed to get it up to snuff and road-legal?
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rer233
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Re: New Member - Ignition & Steering Wheel Questions

Post by rer233 »

Vacuum line that gets full of fuel when AAP is ruptured goes into #1 intake runner. Easy to check- just disconnect and plug AAP vacuum line and see if problem is fixed.
if it aint there, there's a good chance it won't break!
83 SR5 Silver/Blue (Snowmobile/work beater)-totaled but drivable
85 SR5 Blue
88 SR5 White (the 'good' one)-not anymore-totaled
87 fwd silver wagon a/t
87 4wd dx Cream (a/t- not anymore- now m/t)
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Petros
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My tercel:: '84 Tercel4wd w/extensive mods
Location: Arlington WA USA

Re: New Member - Ignition & Steering Wheel Questions

Post by Petros »

welcome to the forum,

That price is a bit high with those problems that need to be fixed, it would be reasonable for the 4wd model, but not FWD.

these are reliable great little wagons, simple to work on and parts are relatively inexpensive, but with any car this old there are typically a lot of things that need to be fixed, usually small nuisance issues (switches, dash lights, etc). so if you can not do at least the simple repairs yourself, it will get costly to own. OTOH, most of the major stuff will run for many more miles on this car, 100k miles is considered low, they typically will go to 200k before major repairs are necessary. I have 400k on mine, but most of the moving parts (bearings, seals, brakes, clutch, etc) have been replaced 2 to four times by now. the auto trans is fairly durable if not abused, performance will improve with fresh ATF flush.

likely there are some worn bushings, ball joints, and/or tie rod ends causing the steering wheel issue. Many alignment shops will check the condition of the ball joints and bushings before they aligned, many chain store repair shops will do a free check (but do not be surprised if they find a long list of parts to replace, they make their living stealing from their customers). Usually the steering wheel is never pulled off unless the steering shaft is replaced, so likely worn parts are causing the steering wheel problem (I find that annoying as well). Also, check if it has the same size tires and they are inflated to correct pressure on both sides.

These cars do hold their alignment pretty good unless bent in a wreck, or suspension components are worn out or damaged. I have found that once I replace the bushing or bad ball joint, the alignment usually comes back into line. the suspension parts are not too costly to buy, and not usually a difficult DIY job, but you can expect to pay a lot of there are a lot of suspension parts to replace (unless you can do it yourself). if there are no bad parts, or after replacing any worn parts, and the problem persists than have the alignment done (that usually does not cost too much, about $50-75.). Tell them to make sure the steering wheel is centered, if after alignment it is still off center they will usually remove it can center it on the spline shaft.

It is extremely unlikely the spline shaft is shot, I do not think I have ever seen that on any Toyota, nor any other car or truck, ever.

Usually if the number one cyl. does not put out power, and it has spark, than it could be a bad exhaust valve, or a bad vacuum leak on the front runner of the intake manifold (either gasket, or vacuum operated component is leaking), or the AAP as stated. but if it went away after running it a bit, the only cause I can think is that if the car had been sitting without running, sometimes one of the valves gets stuck in the open position from gunk or slight rust, and after it runs for a bit it loosens up. I have had that happen on a lawn mower that sat outside all winter, than would not start (the idiot owner went and bought a new one and gave me the old one, that took me about 6 min to fix and get running). Only way to know if the valves are all good is to do a compression check on all four cylinders. if the exhaust valve is bad on it, the head has to come off to replace it, which means a new head gasket as well. Not too big a job to do yourself if you have the correct tools (4 to 5 hours), but about $600-700 or more to have a shop do it for you. If the APP is bad you can just cap off the vac line at both ends, it is only needed for cold start, but will run fine after it warms up a bit.

good luck.
'87 Tercel 4wd SR5 (current engine swap project)
'84 Tercel 4wd (daily driver, with on going mods)
'92 Mazda MPV 4wd (wife's daily driver)
'85 Tercel 4wd DLX auto(daughter's daily driver)
'01 Honda Civic (other daughter's daily driver)
Hoodwagon
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My tercel:: 1985 Tercel SR5

Re: New Member - Ignition & Steering Wheel Questions

Post by Hoodwagon »

Seconded for AAP check, it was just dumping fuel into my #1, wet wet plug. bypassed it until I had the carb rebuilt and it was fine
1985 Toyota Tercel SR5
Pacific Northwest, USA
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LowBuckCanuck
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My tercel:: 1986 DLX 4wd Wagon "Jenny"

Re: New Member - Ignition & Steering Wheel Questions

Post by LowBuckCanuck »

I would say $400 tops, being that its a fwd and an auto. All it has going for it is that low mileage. I bought Jenny with the equivalent of 115000 miles on it for $460 CAD. It has a head leak and needs a speedo cable, among other things, but its a 4wd 6 speed model.
Synchronizor
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My tercel:: 86 Tercel
Location: Eastern Washington

Re: New Member - Ignition & Steering Wheel Questions

Post by Synchronizor »

Yeah, I have plenty of experience working on cars, all the way up to an engine/tranny swap on a buddy's truck in college, and I'm not intimidated by the thought of working on this one. Fiddling with a carburetor will be somewhat new for me, but there's good documentation available for this carb, so that helps, and my day job revolves around looking at & understanding complicated system diagrams.

That's part of the attraction with this Tercel over some throw-away late 1990s or early 2000s compact sedan; if something breaks on the Tercel, I can likely fix it myself, and it doesn't have all the computers or other complicated things that can be a death sentence for an otherwise mechanically sound vehicle. The fact that it still drives effectively with a cylinder out and all the other neglect is a good sign in my eyes. It seems like a rig that I could keep running for decades to come, and trust to get me from A - B one way or the other.

I did give this thing a compression test, and the cylinders read 155, 140, 160, & 152 PSI, front to back. #2 came up noticeably with a little oil. With those results, I don't think this engine has any valve problems. Are these interference engines, by the way? With most of the cars I've worked on, a stuck valve means death.

That AAP sounds like it could be the culprit. When I pulled the spark plug out of cylinder #1, it had a lot of black build-up, as if it had been running super rich. The other three plugs, though obviously old and over-gapped, were the brown color you'd want to see. As far as starting to fire once run for a while, would that fuel flow stop once the engine comes up in temperature, or is the hot engine just better at igniting such a rich intake charge? Either way, if I'm disabling the AAP, I probably want to make a new thermostat a priority. I head to work early, and even on the nice sunny afternoon when I test-drove it, the engine had trouble keeping warm at highway speeds.

The tires are one of the few things on this wagon that are in reasonably good shape, which seems to be the main reason the owner is sticking to her asking price (she said she "just" spent $200 on tires). The suspension seemed to be in good enough shape, though the passenger-side CV shaft did give off a tiny clickity-clack when I crawled underneath and yanked on it. I think I'll double-check to make sure it doesn't pull hard when driving (I had a lot of other stuff I was trying to pay attention to on the last test-drive), just to make sure the fender-bender didn't really tweak something.

I'll also type up a list showing item-by-item what it'll cost to fix the thing up. Maybe that'll help convince the seller to come down a little. Your guys' input on fair prices is really helpful too, thanks.

Here's the link to the Craigslist ad, for anyone interested in more pictures and the sales pitch:
https://spokane.craigslist.org/cto/d/86 ... 25627.html
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Petros
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Re: New Member - Ignition & Steering Wheel Questions

Post by Petros »

that looks like decent compression, so the AAP is a likely culprit. it is a diaphragm the gets ruptured and allows fuel to bleed into the vacuum system, which draw the vacuum from the number one intake runner, hence a very rich mix in the #1 cyl. I do not think it improves after warm up, it might since the thermal vac switch (called a TVSV) is supposed to shut off the APP after it warms up, but these valves are not very precision and I can imagine that raw fuel would leak past it. Also, ofte the TVSV that old does not fully operate, so it may not close all the way.

blocking off the APP vac line will also improve your fuel economy. the only minor troublesome issue is when it is below freezing, the car may have a slight flat spot off of idle when you pull away from a stop. careful feathering of the throttle when stone cold can solve that problem, but once warmed up a few min. the issue goes away. Those of us that grew up when all cars had carburetors (some of my projects were quite old and had very primitive carburetors), are familiar with dealing with a cold engine. EFI made those skills go away, now days you just start the car and drive off, no matter how cold or hot outside.

As far as tires go, used they not worth nearly as much as when new, even right after you drive off of the tires store lot (they are just used tires at that point). On an old car, there is ALWAYS something you just replaced on it. There is some point you have to just let it go for what you can get for it.

Good luck.
'87 Tercel 4wd SR5 (current engine swap project)
'84 Tercel 4wd (daily driver, with on going mods)
'92 Mazda MPV 4wd (wife's daily driver)
'85 Tercel 4wd DLX auto(daughter's daily driver)
'01 Honda Civic (other daughter's daily driver)
Synchronizor
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My tercel:: 86 Tercel
Location: Eastern Washington

Re: New Member - Ignition & Steering Wheel Questions

Post by Synchronizor »

Brought it home yesterday. I printed out a spreadsheet showing her what my expenses would be, and we settled on $500. I was aiming for $450, so it came out a little higher than I hoped, but still within my budget. Spending another week checking out a different car & starting from scratch with the homework would have likely meant missing more than $50 worth of work (I do handyman stuff on the side). I think I'm going to really like this car; even with all its issues, cruising home in it blasting "Major Tom" on the stereo and enjoying the still-working AC brought a big smile to my face. I'm getting started this afternoon with a trip to the auto parts store, and possibly the vehicle registration office if I can get there before they close.

Thanks all for the help, and I'm sure I'll be back with more questions as this project progresses.
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