xirdneh wrote: ↑Mon Feb 12, 2018 12:18 am
When you checked the timing belt did you rotate engine crankshaft 360 degrees so you could watch the belt go all the way around and look at the ribs on inside of belt to make sure none are missing? Rotate crank pulley (harmonic balancer) nut by hand with short 19mm socket on thin 3/8 drive ratchet. Before doing this put tranny in neutral and remove car keys.
I did not do the full rotation I will check that after work today.
Okay so I just checked the belt and the timing and everything are good. The timing is aligned right a and the belt looks good everything under the upper timing cover is in good condition as well.
I recently had the same situation. It sounds like you need to check your fuel pump. Look at the fuel filter and see if there is any fuel movement (assuming the fuel filter is the clear type). If not, the mechanical fuel pump is suspect. Changing it is rather easy. Just have to make sure your don't cross thread the bolt....which is in an tight spot. Good luck.
It very well could be fuel pump related, but why not make sure before dropping more coin on the problem.
So lets recap where we are, am I correct in assuming that we have a good timing belt, properly adjusted, the cam and crank timing lines up and the crank pulley lines up on zero when #1 piston is at top dead centre (firing) and the distributor is properly installed and we have spark on all 4 plugs.
You are positive that the distributor isn't off 180*, correct?
And we have already established that it isn't in the battery/starter circuit.
That only leaves fuel and air.
So, have we done a compression test?
If you crank the engine then pull the plugs are they wet?
If its getting fuel they damn well should be, if they aren't you need to dig into the fuel system, work backwards from the carb until you find whatever is causing the issue.
There is a sight glass on the carb that you should be able to see fuel level at the dimples, you may have to clean the glass.
If no fuel at the carb, pull the far end of the fuel pump output hose(carb side), route the hose into a can, disconnect the distributor so no errant sparks start fires, and crank the motor, you should get a pulsing gush of fuel, if not, back up to the filter and see if its plugged. If still no glory try back blowing the lines with compressed air to make sure there are no blockages. (Remove the fuel cap and listen for the air entering the tank)
Given how cheap fuel filters are, I would want to install a new one and cut open the old one, if you find orange dust stuck in the paper folds then you can be sure the tank is rusty. Some of that rust dust is fine enough to pass thru the filter and can accumulate in the float bowl, once that sludge builds up it can cause fuel starvation and even total fuel blockage. If the filter shows orange dust, that is sufficient reason to pull and clean the carb and of course deal with the fuel tank.
You also want to visually inspect the fuel lines, feed, return and vapour, the fuel tree on top of the tank is notorious for rusting out, as is the vapour line.
While rusty lines will usually seep fuel (causing a smell if not a liquid leak) but before they get to that point they can actually suck air through the rust enough to break the siphon action of the fuel pump. You may think that sounds crazy, I sure did the first time I ran into it. 2nd time too.
With the brine solutions they are pouring on the roads these days, fuel and brake lines are rusting out like never before.
Of course that isn't as much of an issue for those who live in sunny climes, but still worth paying attention to.
Lastly, ethanol is being added to most gasoline and in increasing amounts, ethanol is 10x more corrosive than gasoline.
When it first became available up here (early '90's) we had several Suzukis visit on a tow truck, in every case the sock on the pick up tube inside the tank melted and contaminated the fuel system, it was a horrid mess and expensive for the customers, as the FI cars all needed new injectors.
Not likely your issue but.....
Jarf wrote: ↑Mon Feb 12, 2018 8:51 pm
It very well could be fuel pump related, but why not make sure before dropping more coin on the problem.
So lets recap where we are, am I correct in assuming that we have a good timing belt, properly adjusted, the cam and crank timing lines up and the crank pulley lines up on zero when #1 piston is at top dead centre (firing) and the distributor is properly installed and we have spark on all 4 plugs.
You are positive that the distributor isn't off 180*, correct?
And we have already established that it isn't in the battery/starter circuit.
That only leaves fuel and air.
So, have we done a compression test?
If you crank the engine then pull the plugs are they wet?
If its getting fuel they damn well should be, if they aren't you need to dig into the fuel system, work backwards from the carb until you find whatever is causing the issue.
There is a sight glass on the carb that you should be able to see fuel level at the dimples, you may have to clean the glass.
If no fuel at the carb, pull the far end of the fuel pump output hose(carb side), route the hose into a can, disconnect the distributor so no errant sparks start fires, and crank the motor, you should get a pulsing gush of fuel, if not, back up to the filter and see if its plugged. If still no glory try back blowing the lines with compressed air to make sure there are no blockages. (Remove the fuel cap and listen for the air entering the tank)
Given how cheap fuel filters are, I would want to install a new one and cut open the old one, if you find orange dust stuck in the paper folds then you can be sure the tank is rusty. Some of that rust dust is fine enough to pass thru the filter and can accumulate in the float bowl, once that sludge builds up it can cause fuel starvation and even total fuel blockage. If the filter shows orange dust, that is sufficient reason to pull and clean the carb and of course deal with the fuel tank.
You also want to visually inspect the fuel lines, feed, return and vapour, the fuel tree on top of the tank is notorious for rusting out, as is the vapour line.
While rusty lines will usually seep fuel (causing a smell if not a liquid leak) but before they get to that point they can actually suck air through the rust enough to break the siphon action of the fuel pump. You may think that sounds crazy, I sure did the first time I ran into it. 2nd time too.
With the brine solutions they are pouring on the roads these days, fuel and brake lines are rusting out like never before.
Of course that isn't as much of an issue for those who live in sunny climes, but still worth paying attention to.
Lastly, ethanol is being added to most gasoline and in increasing amounts, ethanol is 10x more corrosive than gasoline.
When it first became available up here (early '90's) we had several Suzukis visit on a tow truck, in every case the sock on the pick up tube inside the tank melted and contaminated the fuel system, it was a horrid mess and expensive for the customers, as the FI cars all needed new injectors.
Not likely your issue but.....
Hey Jarf,
Thanks for helping me out with this I was working on the car today with my brother and we both are a little frustrated but it has been interesting learning all the parts we have had to check. But to get to your questions:
So lets recap where we are, am I correct in assuming that we have a good timing belt, properly adjusted, the cam and crank timing lines up and the crank pulley lines up on zero when #1 piston is at top dead centre (firing) and the distributor is properly installed and we have spark on all 4 plugs.
You are positive that the distributor isn't off 180*, correct?
Yes, when checking the timing belt we rotated the belt all the way to check the ribs in the belt itself. Then removed the upper timing cover and inspect the teeth. Then we had the crank pulley set to zero when the #1 piston was at top dead center and then inspected that the distributor was adjusted right and found that it was because the rotor was pointing at the first spark plug and the gear at the end was lined up like the manual instructions say. We started the compression test but ran out of sunlight and it was getting hard to do anything. We removed the valve cover and inspected all the valves and made sure everyone was opening and closing. Tomorrow we planned on doing the compression test that you described above and then we are going to start with fuel after that starting with the carburetor. I'll make sure to following your instructions above and will report back here after I finish.
Thanks again for all the help and advice. I had no idea that rust could have such an impact on the fuel system. I'll be sure to keep an eye out for the rest tomorrow.
you are getting a lot of good advise, I like to start newbies off with basics.
Presuming you did not have a catastrofic failure of the internal parts (rare but it does happen with toyota engines occationally), you usally get good indications: like a big black hole on the side of the engine block with broken oiling engine parts visable.
Believe it or not, for some people blown engines are not that obvious. I had a family friend's 19 year old son (nice kid, known him since he was a toddler, grew up without a father figure so I was his "model" father...heh, heh, when he was five he asked his mom if she could marry me so I could be his father...funny thing was my daughter was the same age and they were play mates). and actually not dumb and very capable, but he called me and wanted me to come over and help him get his camry running. Me "what happened?" him "I do not know, it just stopped running on the freeway, and it would not restart, and I could not find anything wrong with it"...had it towed home. When I arrived at their house, hood open,I took one look and I saw a hole the size of a dinner plate in the side of the block, right in front, you did not even have to bend over to look at it. It looked like an hand grenade went off. I could not believe it, so not to be too obvious, I said I know why it wont run, it is not fixable, and just stood there. he looked baffled and look at the engine, looked at me, and asked what is it? I point at the black hole. he says "that is not supposed to be their?" No kevin, all engines have nice big inspection ports on the side of the engine so you can check on the internal parts...what do you think? It finally dawned on him, I said that is really rare to happen to a Toyota, was there anything that happened before it stopped? he thought and said there was the "change oil light" on the dash for a week, but he thought he can put it off until he got paid to have the oil changed. I said that should not harm anything, but something occurred to me. "show me on the dash where this "change oil light is?" he turn the key on and pointed at the oil idiot light. I said "so why do you think that means "change oil"? A friend drives a Mercedes and it has a change oil light. hint kevin...a toyota is not a Mercedes. That light means no oil pressure, if it comes on, it means you have severe engine damage already. That is why they call it an idiot light...sound like a good name for it, what do you think? he say "really!", he actually drove it for a week with no oil pressure!!!!! Toyota makes amazing cars, too bad they are not teenager proof. "Well you could not afford to change the oil, but now you get to change the car". not worth fixing, it was a beater, but actually ran flawless and had almost 400k miles on it. What a shame, but they are a dime a dozen. the wrecking yard actually gave him $300 for it, enough to buy another running one.
anyway, back to basics. if it is mechancially okay, two reasons it basically will not run: no fuel, or no spark. simple test for no fuel is to sparty starting fluid down the intake/carb and see if it starts and runs for a few seconds and dies. Also works by putting a little gasoline down the intake, but starter spary is safer and more handy. it it does not start at all, than it is not a fuel problem, likely spark.
Simple spark test, no tools required: pull off one spark plug wire and put something metal in the boot (a phillips screw driver works well, but anything metal works, even a big spike or nail), than allow the metal to be about 1/4" away from any metal part of the engine, and have someone crank it. You should see a strong bluish spark with an audible "snap, snap, snap!" If not spark there is something wrong int he distributor. if the spark is weak, or yellowish, means something is weak and marginal in the spark system.
you go from there. if you have both fuel and spark, than either the timing is off, or it could be too rich and flooding. check for either. check for vacuum leaks, good contacts, etc.
It is important, as stated, but worth repeating to "ALWAYS DIAGNOSE THE PROBLEM BEFORE YOU TRY AND FIX IT!!!!"
otherwise you replace a lot of parts, and you have nto fixed it, you are frustrated and just want to give up. sounds obvious, but you are example. even experianced mechanic forget this sometimes: they see a symtom they have seen before, and know what causes and jump to the solution, before they actually checked to see if it was actually what they thought. I have even fell for that overconfidence once. a low cost fixer tercel4wd I bought sight unseen, would run, fix a lot of other things (brakes, bearings, etc), but it was weak, like running on two cylinders. did a quick power drop test, pull each spark plug in turn as it is on fast idle, it should slow down the same amount each one. If you pull one spark plug wire and there is no change in engine speed, it means that cylinder is not providing power. I found two adjoining cylinders doing nothing. that almost certainly means the head gasket between the two was blown out (fairly big job, seen it lots of times). I almost pull hte head off, started stripping external parts off it. than thought i should double check with a compression test...all cylinders had good high compression. completey baffled, how? found the big brake vacuum booster line pulled off the brake booster, so was air was bleeding into that one side of the manifold, caused mix to be so lean it made no power. Saved me a lot of work, I would have felt really stupid if I did that job and found I had the same problem, it disconnected over on the firewall, not at the engine, it was amazing I caught it, luck reaaly. only because I took the extra 10-15 min to actually test the compression. I thought I was so knowledge able, I did not need to double check my diagnosis made on incomplete information. That is really humbling...I am embarrassed to say on this forum. Lucky my defective brain nagged me to just double check to make sure....
but the lesson is burned into my mind now"ALWAYS DIAGNOSE THE PROBLEM BEFORE YOU TRY AND FIX IT"!!!!
learn from my dumb errors, you do not have to learn them the hard way. Many people say, including on this forum, that I am a real expert, best and smartest person they know. I correct them, I do not feel very smart when I do dumb things, but one thing is true, I am and EXPERT. I am an EXPERT on MISTAKES! I have made them all, and still make them sometimes now. Ask me about what NOT to do, and I can tell you exactly what NOT to do, because I have done it, and done them all, and know what happens...it will not get fixed that way.
Hey guys,
Thanks for all the advice and tips I've been given on this thread. Last night I did a compression test and everything checked out. I was getting a reading of 150 PSI for each cylinder. I don't think the Tercel is having a fuel problem because I've used started fluid to try and get it to run but have had no luck. This leaves me to believe that it is most likely the carburetor as i have checked everything else. Any thoughts?
Please step back from the car and take a deep breath.
The carb supplies fuel to the engine, if fuel is not the problem, why would you replace the carb?
If you truly believe the carb is at fault, there are proper diagnostic procedures listed in the FSM that will highlight any faults.
It is not possible to have compression, fuel and spark at the correct time and still have an engine that won't even try to fire.
At 150psi it should run. While I don't like ether, if that doesn't work, spark is really all that remains.
Either you don't have spark or its not happening at the right time.
Perhaps you could elaborate on the procedure you used to determine the engine was at TDC #1 firing.
As well as how you verified cam, crank and distributor timing?
if you pour a tablespoon of gas down the carb and it does NOT fire up and run for a short time it cannot be the carb that is bad.
it would have to be ignition related
Love those Tercell 4x4 wagons but they sure suffer from road noise.
This may sound stupid, but have you cleaned/replaced the spark plugs (could be fouled.)
if it aint there, there's a good chance it won't break!
83 SR5 Silver/Blue (Snowmobile/work beater)-totaled but drivable
85 SR5 Blue
88 SR5 White (the 'good' one)-not anymore-totaled
87 fwd silver wagon a/t
87 4wd dx Cream (a/t- not anymore- now m/t)
TL said:
"Then we had the crank pulley set to zero when the #1 piston was at top dead center and then inspected that the distributor was adjusted right and found that it was because the rotor was pointing at the first spark plug and the gear at the end was lined up like the manual instructions say."
So the point I am trying to make is that IF you had the dizzy 180* off then turned the crank pulley to TDC#1 but were accidentally on the exhaust stroke not compression, it would LOOK like the dizzy timing was correct, but is really off by 180 degrees and the engine won't even try to fire.
I don't see that you ensured you where on the compression stroke by either having a finger over the spark plug hole and feeling the pressure build or by having the valve cover off and ensuring that both valves are fully closed.
I keep harping on this because its SO easy to do, especially when you're already frustrated.
using a small segment of hose to put over #1 spark plug hole and blow works well. If the piston/valve is at correct (top of power stroke) place you should not be able to blow air in. then you can set distributor so that rotor is pointing NorthWest.
i also should have mentioned checking for severe flooding by shining flashlight down carb throat to see if gas is puddled in intake manifold. if it is flooded adding gas/starterfluid primer will not help. Once had a car that did the severe flooding thing now and then. the only way i could get it started was to tow it or roll it down a big long hill and compression start it.
Love those Tercell 4x4 wagons but they sure suffer from road noise.
[quote=Jarf post_id=100912 time=1518789968 user_id=1391]
I don't see that you ensured you were on the compression stroke by either having a finger over the spark plug hole and feeling the pressure build or by having the valve cover off and ensuring that both valves are fully closed.
I keep harping on this because it's SO easy to do, especially when you're already frustrated.
[/quote]
Good point I might have it off but I took some pictures so help me verify that everything is correct. I'm sorry but I'm probably going to botch the language for this so please be patient.
So I took the upper timing belt cover off, then the valve cover. I rotated the camshaft and aligned the mark with zero "0" [img]https://imgur.com/eFA0yQ2[/img]. Then I made sure both the upper and lower timing belt pulleys matched their indicators. (Upper) [img]https://imgur.com/KhW94bO[/img] (Lower) [img]https://imgur.com/ZSiKaJ6[/img]. I Aligned the upper pulley so that the hole is pointed up and matched the mark. I made sure the lower pulley matched it's marked as well there is a pick but it's kind of hard to see but you can see in the lower right-hand corner the two marks. Then I opened the valve cover and here is what it looks like [img]https://imgur.com/bYEr0u3[/img], [img]https://imgur.com/gdwdSMX[/img]. Then I checked the distributor and made sure everything matched up there. When I removed the cover the rotor was pointing at the number one spark plug. [img]https://imgur.com/7HxN2mX[/img] and the verified that the distributor pin was aligned with how the manual says it should be [img]https://imgur.com/Bo5wd6d[/img]. That's what it is set. Does this look right to you guys?
all of that looks correct. I use that round logo on the top of the coil as a reference for the distributor rotor. If the rotor points at that round logo, it is close enough to start.
You will still have to set the timing once running using a timing light (or "by ear" if you know how).
Sure does.
I usually check for spark by pulling a wire off, stuffing a spare plug in....
Last spring my lawnmower wouldn't start, messed around with it for a couple of days, I had spark, fuel, compression.... I checked EVERYTHING.
In a fit of desperation I went out and bought a new spark plug. Damn thing started up.
Stupid spark plug. It looked fine, it tested fine
Might be worth pulling the plugs and sticking them into the wires, grounding them and rechecking for spark, just to rule out the entire ignition system?
Pulling at straws here but it just doesn't make any sense.
It would appear that all the players are present, yet the game still hasn't started??
Jarf wrote: ↑Sat Feb 17, 2018 6:37 pm
Sure does.
I usually check for spark by pulling a wire off, stuffing a spare plug in....
Last spring my lawnmower wouldn't start, messed around with it for a couple of days, I had spark, fuel, compression.... I checked EVERYTHING.
In a fit of desperation I went out and bought a new spark plug. Damn thing started up.
Stupid spark plug. It looked fine, it tested fine
sounds like you used a Champion brand small engine spark plug. I have had the same experience with that, local small engine repair shop suggested I use the Autolite plug, and never had another problem spark plug again in any of our small engines (lawn mower, trimmer, chain saws, generator, etc).
