Dependable Engine Rebuild Kit

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NWMO
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Dependable Engine Rebuild Kit

Post by NWMO »

Hey all,

Looking for rebuild kit and clutch recommendations on my upcoming engine project. Hope to pick up a junkyard 4AC (from an 85' Chevy Nova), tank the block and have the head gone through. Should I be concerned about valve springs or just let the Machine Shop direct me as they go through the head? Get the right kit and put it back together. The stock engine in my 85' is laying down, so I will pull pans, covers, brackets, etc. from it.

First searches return Clegg and DNJ kits, not sure what CarPartsWiz or Perfect Engine uses for their kits. Engine Parts Only shows DNJ kits on their site.

I've read some previous posts and have seen a mild cam recommendation from Petros, any other suggestions?

Likely sticking with the stock 3A carb as it has worked fine for me.

Not looking for anything more than a dependable, efficient rebuild that will nearly match OEM. I did see some discussion about polishing intake headers, etc. I may very well take that on if I have the time. Part of me would kind of like an exhaust header as well (just for fun), but that seems like a custom prospect, don't know if I will make time for that. I have access to a pipe bender and MIG welder, would be fun, but we'll have to see. If a person did put their own header together, it appears there is some disagreement on the material to use.

This would go in the Rusty Frog, but I figure to have another Tercel down the road so the engine will likely be with me longer than the car.

TIA,

Chris
Psalm 37:4 "Delight yourself in the Lord and he will give you the desires of your heart"

In remembrance of my friend ARCHINSTL:

T4WD augury?
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Petros
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Re: Dependable Engine Rebuild Kit

Post by Petros »

I stopped buying engine kits many decades ago, you spend a lot of money on things you will not use or do not need. So I just buy the parts I will be using, selecting the specific rings, pistons, bearings, etc that I want. A simple gasket kit should be fairly inexpensive that will give you the major gaskets as well as all the o-rings, and smaller paper gaskets. even so, you will have a lot in the kit you will not use (for example, if you do not disassemble the intake/exhaust manifold assembly, there are a number of gaskets you will not need...presuming the ones in your assembly are all good). I rebuilt whole engines by just buying a head gasket, intake/exhaust gasket, and the head pipe gasket, and four o-rings (distr., water pump, and two small ones on the by-pass tube). All the rest I either reused, or if I had to make them from the gasket box, or I used permatex form-a-gasket on the oil pan, and elsewhere. Depending on what you need, buying just the parts can save you several hundred over a full rebuild kit.

you should count on over boring the engine and using four oversized pistons and ring set. Usually on an old engine it is not worth it to try and reuse the old pistions by installing just new standard size rings. even a little wear in the cylinder walls means poor oil control and likely piston slap, best just to start fresh with a clean new bore. I when a full .040" over (about 1 mm) to get the max displacement, it also raises the compression about a quarter of a point (from 9.5:1 CR to 9.75:1). Usually most will go with 0.020" oversized, this would allow you after several hundred thousand more miles to rebuild and oversize again to the larger 0.040" later. Though I undersand finding pistons for these engines (at least for the 3ac) is becoming more of a problem, but perhaps not for the 4ac (which was more common than the 3ac)

if you give the head to your machine shop they would usually order seals, exhaust valves, and valve guides if you need them. Though you might talk to the machine shop, these are really cheap to buy from Rockauto, if they have no preference than it might save you money to get them yourself. Some machine shops only want to use parts from their supplier, so they can trust them (and make a bit more money off of you), but it is not a very large difference if they will not accept your own parts.

I highly recommend btw to replace the exhaust valves. Do not resurface the exhaust valves, they suffer internal heat damage, not worth the risk of having an exhaust valve fall apart six months after the rebuild...I have had it happen. intake valves can be resurfaced and reused no problem, as long as they are within spec. You may or may not need to replace the valve guides, it depends how worn out your old one are, but again they are not too costly, I seem to recall about $2 each from rock auto.
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Re: Dependable Engine Rebuild Kit

Post by teranfirbt »

Clevite bearings and NPR piston rings (Nippon Piston Rings, they're what Toyota uses for OEM). Sealed Power also makes quality gear.
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Re: Dependable Engine Rebuild Kit

Post by splatterdog »

I'm leary of most "kits". Convenient, but quality can suffer. Careful cherry picking of individual parts can sometimes even be cheaper. In engine rebuild situations, saving money can be counter productive. Valve springs can be tested. If they are cheap, I would do them. Springs get weak after decades..

Total Seal Rings are pretty neat.
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Re: Dependable Engine Rebuild Kit

Post by Petros »

I always test the valve springs (easy to do with a drill press and a scale, but most machine shops have a machine for testing springs). Never had an issue with toyota springs, even after many many 1000's of miles. but I test them anyway.

If you have to replace the springs, buy twice as many as you need, and than test them all, pick the best "matched" eight springs. After market springs can vary a lot, so than send back the mis-matched ones.
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NWMO
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Re: Dependable Engine Rebuild Kit

Post by NWMO »

Thanks for the advise, I will let you know how it goes.

Chris
Psalm 37:4 "Delight yourself in the Lord and he will give you the desires of your heart"

In remembrance of my friend ARCHINSTL:

T4WD augury?
"Oh, do not ask, 'What is it?' Let us go and make our visit."
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"Now and then we had a hope that, if we lived and were good, God would permit us to be pirates."
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Re: Dependable Engine Rebuild Kit

Post by cars-guy »

Just throwing in some of my own experience. Most of my expiericne comes from 22r truck motors but most in line 4s are the same. If you want a good quality kit for very little money, look at DNJ kits. Its the only kit that the master 22r builder, todd at engnbldr.com uses. You can pick one up for the 3ac for less then 200 bucks shipped to your door. all the parts are exceptional quality and i believe they come with NPR rings aswell. The best motor I've built was an early 22r block, bored 20 over, oversize valves, 270 cam, head casting cleaned up and port matched, offenhouser intake, weber 32/36, and full exhaust. Motor puts out 140hp at the tire and has 212,000 miles on the rebuild with all dnj engine parts. Motor has only lost 3-4 psi of compression since it was built and oil pressure is still exactly the same and she pulls as hard as the day i built it.
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Re: Dependable Engine Rebuild Kit

Post by cars-guy »

also, doing a little bit of performance work can help you when building the engine. On most of these engines power is made in the cylinder head. some very simple but effective work includes just cleaning up the head casting in general. Getting rid of little bumps and casting imperfections with a dremel and a sanding wheel just to smooth out the ports and have it flow every so slightly better. also polishing the exhaust port works well too. Some other things you can try is port matching the intake manifold to the head, some slightly over size valves (I'm talking like a .1-.2 mm larger, and a slightly bigger cam. With valves on a small motor like this its very important to not go to big but a small amount can be beneficial) I have a video on how to do this properly here
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q03gFgG5ND4&t=65s

With these little motors theres not much you can do to make power but you can help yourself out just a little bit with some basic know how and elbow grease for free.
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Re: Dependable Engine Rebuild Kit

Post by Petros »

Cars-guy,

have you gone and read my thread on replacing the head gasket? It outlines suggested improvements, but this head was obsolete in when it was in production, most other manufacturers and even other Toyota models had already gone to the 16 valve (4 valves per cylinder) design. In addition, the 3a head is a flawed design that does not allow even cooling around the exhaust valves.

clean up the ports yes, but there is no point in wasting a lot of money improving it with bigger valves, you will have nothing but grief. Better to just go to a different engine design (4ac, 4age, 4afe), it will cost less and you will end up with a much better, more reliable, and more powerful engine. The 3a head will not tolerate much increase in power output before it fails.

As good as most of the Toyota products are, the 3a was a mistake, poorly executed and obsolete. The honda, Nissan, and Mazda had abandon the 8 valve head on thier 4-cyl engines, and so should have toyota. you are inherently limited by the poor flow of the head design. Either rebuilt it in near stock condition, with minor clean up of the ports, perhaps a better street cam, and leave it at that. If you want more power go to a better design.
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Re: Dependable Engine Rebuild Kit

Post by cars-guy »

Noted :)
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Re: Dependable Engine Rebuild Kit

Post by The Professor »

Petros wrote: Tue Oct 31, 2017 10:03 pm I when a full .040" over (about 1 mm) to get the max displacement, it also raises the compression about a quarter of a point (from 9.5:1 CR to 9.75:1).
If you didn't change the geometry of the piston crown, how did you increase your CR? Just changing the bore doesn't alter the CR?
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Re: Dependable Engine Rebuild Kit

Post by NWMO »

Professor,

Changing bore alone will increase CR as the head geometry remains virtually unchanged.

"Volume at BDC"/"Volume at TDC" = CR

boring .040" increases the piston area from 51.5 cm2 to 54 cm2, thus increasing the "volume BDC" by just under 5%

1.05 x 9.5 (assumed)= 9.97, I would guess the volume TDC will change slightly and Peter has accounted for that to arrive at 9.75/1.

http://blog.jpcycles.com/engine-compres ... they-work/

Chris
Psalm 37:4 "Delight yourself in the Lord and he will give you the desires of your heart"

In remembrance of my friend ARCHINSTL:

T4WD augury?
"Oh, do not ask, 'What is it?' Let us go and make our visit."
T.S. Eliot - "The Love Song of J. Alfred Prufrock"

"Now and then we had a hope that, if we lived and were good, God would permit us to be pirates."
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Re: Dependable Engine Rebuild Kit

Post by Petros »

exactly correct: you have a slightly larger volume displacement when you over bore it, which is getting compressed into the same combustion chamber volume. hence, small increase in CR.
'87 Tercel 4wd SR5 (current engine swap project)
'84 Tercel 4wd (daily driver, with on going mods)
'92 Mazda MPV 4wd (wife's daily driver)
'85 Tercel 4wd DLX auto(daughter's daily driver)
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NWMO
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Re: Dependable Engine Rebuild Kit

Post by NWMO »

Hey all,

The second block is going to be bored .020” over and they will order the pistons, etc. next week. The supplier the MS uses expressed difficulty in getting a gasket kit. Even though I will swap the oil pan and intake/exhaust manifolds, I’m still looking for a 4a gasket set, correct?

TIA,

Chris
Psalm 37:4 "Delight yourself in the Lord and he will give you the desires of your heart"

In remembrance of my friend ARCHINSTL:

T4WD augury?
"Oh, do not ask, 'What is it?' Let us go and make our visit."
T.S. Eliot - "The Love Song of J. Alfred Prufrock"

"Now and then we had a hope that, if we lived and were good, God would permit us to be pirates."
Mark Twain
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NWMO
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Re: Dependable Engine Rebuild Kit

Post by NWMO »

Alrighty,

NAPA has Felpro in upper and lower gasket sets that appears to cover everything. They also have a Sealed Power complete set, though it is roughly $70 more.

Upper
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Last edited by NWMO on Sat Mar 24, 2018 7:47 am, edited 2 times in total.
Psalm 37:4 "Delight yourself in the Lord and he will give you the desires of your heart"

In remembrance of my friend ARCHINSTL:

T4WD augury?
"Oh, do not ask, 'What is it?' Let us go and make our visit."
T.S. Eliot - "The Love Song of J. Alfred Prufrock"

"Now and then we had a hope that, if we lived and were good, God would permit us to be pirates."
Mark Twain
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