Hurt Hot and the tool to achieve it

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splatterdog
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Hurt Hot and the tool to achieve it

Post by splatterdog » Tue Oct 29, 2013 6:27 pm

Everyone, including me has complained about poor heat in T4's. I've done two chemical flushes and backflushed at least a couple hundred gallons thru the heater core. Made a small improvement but was still poor, and has been for a few years. Got a new tool that fixed it in seconds. Now it burns! Even the shoe leather side of my hands cant take the heat coming out the vents. Tried showing off last night by letting it idle with the blower on high after getting home. Didn't work. The engine can't keep up at idle! It had closed the stat and dropped the temp gauge almost a 1/4 inch below normal in minutes. Before, the heater couldn't keep the cooling fan from cycling.

But, it isn't cheap. For some a new core might be more cost effective. I present to you the Gates 91002(and a cheaper version below). http://www.gates.com/file_display_commo ... finalB.pdf

Rockauto was the cheapest place I could find. http://www.rockauto.com/dbphp/x,catalog ... 91002.html

I did get the much cheaper "Viper" brand plastic version which is on clearance at oreilly's until they are gone. http://www.oreillyauto.com/site/c/detai ... &ppt=C0192
Just don't forget the adapter kit. http://www.oreillyauto.com/site/c/detai ... &ppt=C0192

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ARCHINSTL
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My tercel:: Goldie is a 1986 SR5 attualmente con Weber/also owned the first T4WD in STL in late '82
Location: Kirkwood, a 'burb of St. Louis

Re: Hurt Hot and the tool to achieve it

Post by ARCHINSTL » Tue Oct 29, 2013 6:39 pm

Almost tempting - if my number comes up on Mega Millions in a couple of hours...
Maybe I'll call Gates to see who in the STL area has one of these.
Thanks!
Tom M.
T4WD augury?
"Oh, do not ask, 'What is it?' Let us go and make our visit."
T.S. Eliot - "The Love Song of J. Alfred Prufrock"
"Now and then we had a hope that, if we lived and were good, God would permit us to be pirates."
Mark Twain

TURTCEL
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My tercel:: 1985 4WD SR5 Wagon, Brown (TURTCEL)
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Re: Hurt Hot and the tool to achieve it

Post by TURTCEL » Tue Oct 29, 2013 7:22 pm

I am surprised that there are people complaining about poor heat in these Tercs. My heater blows so dang hot that I have to turn it down even on the coldest days. As a matter of fact, all of my Toyota rigs past and present have had exceptional heaters. Just my experience.

Peace
1985 Tercel 4wd SR5 Wagon, WEBER Carb, Brown (TURTCEL)
1988 Corolla DLX All-Trac Wagon, 4 speed AT, Silver (Wife's new car)
1993 Ford Escort Wagon LX, 5 Speed, Smurf Blue (Smurfette)...selling

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Petros
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Re: Hurt Hot and the tool to achieve it

Post by Petros » Tue Oct 29, 2013 7:36 pm

By virtue that these cars last so long, the heater tends to get heavy build-up of scale, hampering the amount of heat you can get out of it, when new the heater could get the car uncomfortably hot, even in very cold climates. Mine daily driver has such a problem, I want to use chemicals to boil it out, but I risk thinning the walls of the core and possibly making it leak, so I have tolerated warm air rather than real heat in mine.

New heater cores are about $60 from Rockauto, so it is tough purchase at even the lower cost cleaning tool clearance item at $160. of course, if your heater core is corroded and marginal, flushing it with water hammer force might just blow it out, meaning you will be buying a new heater core anyway.

Of course if this kind of things works it would have you from having to tear the dash apart to replace the heater core (I presume you can use this with the heater core in place). I wonder if autozone or O'Reilly's rents them, that would be the thing to do.

Seems like this tool could be handy for other cleaning jobs as well: could it be used to blast off greasy build-up on the engine and suspension after a long time oil leak?
'87 Tercel 4wd SR5 (current engine swap project)
'84 Tercel 4wd (daily driver, with on going mods)
'92 Mazda MPV 4wd (wife's daily driver)
'85 Tercel 4wd DLX auto(daughter's daily driver)
'01 Honda Civic (other daughter's daily driver)

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ARCHINSTL
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My tercel:: Goldie is a 1986 SR5 attualmente con Weber/also owned the first T4WD in STL in late '82
Location: Kirkwood, a 'burb of St. Louis

Re: Hurt Hot and the tool to achieve it

Post by ARCHINSTL » Tue Oct 29, 2013 10:05 pm

My heater experience is the same as Petros'. When I had the then-new '83, it was hot-hot-hot. Now, not so much.
Of course, I was coming from a '69 VW Bus, which I think was made by Frigidaire under a subcontract from VW.

splatterdog - you're a wrench, so do you think there is a risk of blowing a core? Did you do the whole system or just the core?
Tom M.
T4WD augury?
"Oh, do not ask, 'What is it?' Let us go and make our visit."
T.S. Eliot - "The Love Song of J. Alfred Prufrock"
"Now and then we had a hope that, if we lived and were good, God would permit us to be pirates."
Mark Twain

c_j
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My tercel:: T4WD#4: '86 SR5 6-speed, original Barto lift & steel bumpers & winch, also 95Amp alternator
Location: Vancouver Island, BC, Canada

Re: Hurt Hot and the tool to achieve it

Post by c_j » Wed Oct 30, 2013 1:00 am

So, if I wanted to build a basic one, are these all of the parts I would need?
  • adapter - female garden hose to pipe thread
  • check valve
  • tee fitting
  • vented adjustable regulator set at about 16psi (propane type?)
  • air blow gun with rubber nozzle
  • pipe thread fittings to join everything
  • some hose
So, if I understand how a homebrew version of this device would work:
  • Approx 60psi garden hose water enters through a check valve and into a tee,
  • compressed air enters through a regulator (~16psi) and into the same tee,
  • extra pressure (>16psi from the garden hose) in the line exits through the regulator vent and dribbles on the ground,
  • the garden hose tap is throttled down so it doesn't flow too much and overpressurize the line,
  • now this air/water combo tee is connected to a blow gun with rubber nozzle,
  • the user inserts into a heater hose and pumps the trigger on the blow gun,
  • this pulsing pressure expands and contracts the pipes and breaks off scale/deposits in the pipes.
Does that sound about right or does it work differently than that?

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dlb
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Re: Hurt Hot and the tool to achieve it

Post by dlb » Wed Oct 30, 2013 8:03 am

colin, if you get a home-job version of this rigged up, i will be your first customer.

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Petros
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Re: Hurt Hot and the tool to achieve it

Post by Petros » Wed Oct 30, 2013 1:25 pm

are you sure you will develop a water hammer with a rig like that? there might be some kind of flutter valve in the nozzle that sets up a rapid cycle water hammer, not sure what it would take to cause that.

Maybe Splaterdog will tell us how it actually works.
'87 Tercel 4wd SR5 (current engine swap project)
'84 Tercel 4wd (daily driver, with on going mods)
'92 Mazda MPV 4wd (wife's daily driver)
'85 Tercel 4wd DLX auto(daughter's daily driver)
'01 Honda Civic (other daughter's daily driver)

c_j
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My tercel:: T4WD#4: '86 SR5 6-speed, original Barto lift & steel bumpers & winch, also 95Amp alternator
Location: Vancouver Island, BC, Canada

Re: Hurt Hot and the tool to achieve it

Post by c_j » Wed Oct 30, 2013 4:00 pm

Petros wrote:are you sure you will develop a water hammer with a rig like that? there might be some kind of flutter valve in the nozzle that sets up a rapid cycle water hammer, not sure what it would take to cause that.
The operator would have to do it manually with the trigger, but the real McCoy probably does have a fancy valve there. It is a patented device. Maybe a guy should look it up the patent and see what makes the magic.
Petros wrote:Maybe Splaterdog will tell us how it actually works.
+1

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splatterdog
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Re: Hurt Hot and the tool to achieve it

Post by splatterdog » Wed Oct 30, 2013 8:17 pm

You hook up the hoses and let er rip! Not exactly sure how it works. It was developed by Hecat. They specialize in heat exchanger flushing. http://hecatinc.com/. It's probably safer than just about any home made air assisted flusher. I'm sure they did plenty of homework as heat exchanger flushing equipment is all they do. I know ac specialists and tranny guys love their stuff.

It just brought back another T4 today. If your heat sucks and any form of flushing killed it the end result is still the same. You need a core! Anything that can save a dash removal is well worth it. If I ever need a new one, I will not hesitate to buy another. Even for over 4 hundo.

Short of buying one, Tom's gots the right idea. Call around to see if any local shops have one. Even ask to see it, as I don't trust mechanics. Sad huh?

I will flush the rest out one of these days. The rad is newer and the engine has been thru 3 chem flushes in 2 cars. First time on a bad system and I would attack it from every direction. Provided there's access, newer cars can really suck..

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Petros
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Re: Hurt Hot and the tool to achieve it

Post by Petros » Wed Oct 30, 2013 10:41 pm

So, what happens when you "let er rip!"? does it pulse, or vibrate, hum? what happens? I presume you have the other end off and you can see water flushing out the nasty stuff. does the end water just boil out, or does it pulse and blast out? can you remove the hose and use it as pressure washer/spray nozzel, or does it only work for internal cleaning?

Here is the issue for home use: you will only need it infrequently, once per old car. So hardly worth it for home use, so being able to rent one would be the way to go.
'87 Tercel 4wd SR5 (current engine swap project)
'84 Tercel 4wd (daily driver, with on going mods)
'92 Mazda MPV 4wd (wife's daily driver)
'85 Tercel 4wd DLX auto(daughter's daily driver)
'01 Honda Civic (other daughter's daily driver)

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ARCHINSTL
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My tercel:: Goldie is a 1986 SR5 attualmente con Weber/also owned the first T4WD in STL in late '82
Location: Kirkwood, a 'burb of St. Louis

Re: Hurt Hot and the tool to achieve it

Post by ARCHINSTL » Wed Oct 30, 2013 11:02 pm

splatterdog - Interesting - I just clicked on your O'Reilly links (and verified it with a separate visit to its site).
The full Viper kit, #5125, is back to $500 from $110 and the Adapter Kit is back to $122 from $32 - note that the adapter kit is needed if one purchases just the basic gun #5120 @$400 - this does heater cores only.
Looks like you really lucked out.
Tom M.
T4WD augury?
"Oh, do not ask, 'What is it?' Let us go and make our visit."
T.S. Eliot - "The Love Song of J. Alfred Prufrock"
"Now and then we had a hope that, if we lived and were good, God would permit us to be pirates."
Mark Twain

c_j
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Joined: Mon Dec 06, 2010 3:06 pm
My tercel:: T4WD#4: '86 SR5 6-speed, original Barto lift & steel bumpers & winch, also 95Amp alternator
Location: Vancouver Island, BC, Canada

Re: Hurt Hot and the tool to achieve it

Post by c_j » Wed Oct 30, 2013 11:13 pm

Petros wrote:So, what happens when you "let er rip!"?
Basically it spits water,air,water,air,water,air in very fast succession. And to answer my earlier question, the device is used on an open-ended system, so even if the garden hose is 60psi and the air pressure is higher, you shouldn't overpressurize the system because it can't build pressure with one end open.
Video here: http://www.hecat-inc.com/product_videos.htm (at bottom right side of screen)

Also, the patent number is 5615695 if anyone else wants to check it out (easy search). spoiler: The magic is accomplished with a restricted orifice into a pressure chamber and venturi suction out.

The model we are discussing does not use a pressure chamber like in the patent, so I suspect expansion/contraction of the pressurized garden hose makes it behave in a similar fashion. Plus, I'm guessing you have to throttle down the garden hose valve. The special part in the coolant flusher model is in the tee fitting.

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Petros
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Re: Hurt Hot and the tool to achieve it

Post by Petros » Thu Oct 31, 2013 12:49 am

I saw the video, now it is clear, the water pulses with the air out the nozzle. the trick would be to create a chamber of some sort that is sized so it creates a harmonic. the "magic" is just a water hammer harmonic, sometimes plumbing water pipes do that in a house, the have to add an air chamber to make it stop. I think I might have some bits and pieces around my garage to make something like that work.
'87 Tercel 4wd SR5 (current engine swap project)
'84 Tercel 4wd (daily driver, with on going mods)
'92 Mazda MPV 4wd (wife's daily driver)
'85 Tercel 4wd DLX auto(daughter's daily driver)
'01 Honda Civic (other daughter's daily driver)

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splatterdog
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Re: Hurt Hot and the tool to achieve it

Post by splatterdog » Thu Oct 31, 2013 12:16 pm

ARCHINSTL wrote:splatterdog - Interesting - I just clicked on your O'Reilly links (and verified it with a separate visit to its site).
The full Viper kit, #5125, is back to $500 from $110 and the Adapter Kit is back to $122 from $32 - note that the adapter kit is needed if one purchases just the basic gun #5120 @$400 - this does heater cores only.
Looks like you really lucked out.
Tom M.
Lucky indeed! Great heat and a killer tool deal.

I kinda wonder if the sudden interest from here helped kick it back up in price?

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