4age swap questions

Jonsblckhwk · Post by **Jonsblckhwk** » Wed Dec 29, 2004 10:06 pm

bah who needs ac anyways its winter in MD

20vtercel · Post by **20vtercel** » Thu Dec 30, 2004 6:13 pm

Jonsblckhwk wrote: would a supercharged car need a different intercooler than a turbocharged car?

Depends what kind of a blower you are fabbing.

If it is a positive displacement blower, then yes. If it is a centrifugal blower, then no.

I assume you are referring to the 4agze blower and no it does not require a differnet intercoler for the same boost pressure as the turbo. Now, in saying that, you'll need a larger intercooler for the turbo if you plan on going crazy with the boost. A 112 S/C from a 4agze (correct the model if i'm wrong) can only produce 12 psi max with a reduction pulley. The 114 s/c from TRD made for a previa, can produce sligtly more and is more efficient, however it needs modifacation to mount to a 4agze (but it has been done).

A turbo can produce upwards of 20psi in stock off the sheft type turbo's. Aftermarket turbos can produce that and more than 45psi.

So, anything over and above CFM of your blower, the turbo will require a larger intercooler.

If you are trying to decide what to do, i strongly suggest turbo. They are more efficent, IE: you don't need power to make power. That and the possibilities are greater with turbo's

Jonsblckhwk · Post by **Jonsblckhwk** » Thu Dec 30, 2004 11:21 pm

yea i do plan on switching to a turbocharger because i want to run 20+ psi

and i want a blow off valve

but yeah i was jsut wondering what kind of FMI will fit and will be better than the stock TMIC and best with a turbo setup running 15-20psi daily.
because i want to upgrade the intercooler but i wont have the money or knowledge for a turbocharger swap.
ive heard that the bigger IC create more lag as there is larger volume and whatnot.
also what size piping would be best? with the 15-20psi turbo in mind down the road?
im either looking for someone to say here pick this intercooler or here are the dimensions find the best one in your budget.
thanks for your time
if noone knows thats okay i can measure after i get the car, which should be soon as school starts back up next week

Jonsblckhwk · Post by **Jonsblckhwk** » Wed Jan 05, 2005 8:27 pm

yeah the this project will never be, at least not from me. my mom finally agreed to let me do performance mods to my 97 tercel in place of buying another car(97 isnt paid off yet)
so i will be getting that ready to get a new 4e-fte by around the same time-hopefully
if not thats ok too because the car only has 60k on it so its not going anywhere.
this way i can put my body kit, rims, and suspension on right away instead of waiting because of money.
yeah its not as cool but it will be cool enough for me

if anyone plans on doing this swap get in touch with me and ill share all the info i found...
yeah sry to dissapoint thanks for teaching me stuff i didnt know about my 97 as well

and thanks for helpin a brutha out

3A-C Power · Post by **3A-C Power** » Wed Jan 05, 2005 9:51 pm

Good luck on your project. The 4E-FTE swap will be easier and it's been done many times so there's alot of help available. I'm staying with the old school myself, it's just what turns my own crank.

FH Bible · Post by **FH Bible** » Thu Feb 03, 2005 1:19 pm

Allright I bought a 5af and am getting ready to throw it in.

My girlfriend destroyed her 3a. Sounded like some one is playing the snare drum under the hood! It idled riddiculously bad and was shooting out blue smoke. Yummy! Yeah I know I should have bought the 4age. I got this motor from japan and it was only 350 shipped to AZ. I did not want to convert the car to fuel injection either.

Question.

On your 4age the distributer hangs off the back towards the firewall.
How did you make it fit?
The f series head has a similar setup and I have no idea how to cram that thing in there w/o cutting the firewall.

Everything else looks like it will be okay.
The exhaust routes on the driver side but that is okay as long as build a heat sheild for the starter. I will probably put on the pacesetter header as well.

Any help would be great. It just does not look like it can fit w/o hacking and chopping.
thanks
jared

3A-C Power · Post by **3A-C Power** » Thu Feb 03, 2005 7:45 pm

That's a good price for a good engine. I keep thinking of putting an F engine in for the fuel economy and they're cheaper too. The 4A-GE 20 valve will fit with the stock distributor but from the pictures I've seen it looks like the F distributor sticks out even further and hence may not fit. The 5E-FE from the 95-99 Tercel has distributorless ignition and it might be adaptable to the 5A-FE electronics? There's always a way to make DLI work but at a cost.

FH Bible · Post by **FH Bible** » Fri Feb 04, 2005 4:53 pm

I did some more measuring and it looks like it will fit after all. The 3a head hangs back toward the fire wall by about 2 inches off the block and makes it look like there isn't any space, but there is.

How do you separate the engine from the trany?
I can't figure out how to unbolt the flywheel assembly. I don't know where the access hatch is.

Pegger · Post by **Pegger** » Fri Feb 04, 2005 8:55 pm

From the couple of previous posts I'm assuming then that you think the 4AF's distributor will fit without firewall modification?
Similar spacing as the 4AGE's distributor..???
What does the intake manifold look like on that motor? Points rear-ward like the transverse 4AGE's?

I'm exploring options for EFI in the Wagon and the 4AFE would provide that, be cheap (those engines are plentiful), economical on gas, a little more power (not frame twisting), a do-able swap (I think)... That's a lot of advantages...

So in keeping with the threads topic, "4AGE swap", assuming the 4AFE is the same engine (similar enough) with the economy head, swapping it in would be quite similar... (I think)...

Guy

3A-C Power · Post by **3A-C Power** » Fri Feb 04, 2005 10:28 pm

To make the 4A-FE work there are still all the changes that come with putting a front wheel drive engine in a rear wheel drive position. The intake points the wrong way and it also sticks up high, so it will have to be modified or a custom one made. The coolant lines will have to be extended to reach the radiator and you need to route the exhaust from the other side of the engine which is tricky but can be done. Possibly a custom header or bending the stock one. Basically all the work that has to be done with a 4A-GE except you do have it in your favour that the 3A-C flywheel will fit directly, its bolt pattern is the same. It's alot of work for an engine that does technically bolt into place. People who modify nice or fast cars that cost more regularly go through all this work and more to put a better engine in. Our Tercels are cheap and utilitarian, but then they have the 3A-C so whatever engine we put in will be so much more of an improvement.

goofballz · Post by **goofballz** » Wed Feb 09, 2005 3:37 pm

russkiypenguin wrote: I don't know why I'm trying to detail all the reasons why your response pissed me off.

Here's the bottom line. Your response pissed me off. I'm from Missouri. Show me. Show me a twisted frame from an upgraded engine on a Tercel Wagon and I'll believe you. Until then you'll just piss me off.

I had a 1980 Tercel, gutted. It probably weighed about 1800 pounds. These older cars were before engine swaps were really thought of. I was going to put a BlackTop 4AGE, but decided not to. That and the fact it got totalled.

WHY?

The shop I was talking to simply put it, the cars frame is too light, it isn't meant to handle that kind of torque. The 3-AC motor had I think 60hp? Then you're going to switch it to a 200hp/200torque (apprx) motor, and not expect something to happen? Especially with a UNIBODY frame? I was told that I would come off the clutch, and twist my whole frame.

And, if you still don't believe it, then pick up your phone, or get the telegram since you're in missouri, and call a shop that does engine swaps and ask them. What would happen if I took a 1980 Unibody frame if I added a new 2000 engine into it, with over 3x times torque and hp?

Let me lend you some insight. On the roof, I could pierce it with a knife. The metal was extremely thin, if the car flipped, I don't doubt I would have been crushed. If that's just the roof, think about the frame.

Yeah, I'm new to this forum, but sorry, your ignorance pissed me off.

GTSSportCoupe · Post by **GTSSportCoupe** » Wed Feb 09, 2005 4:05 pm

goofballz wrote:
russkiypenguin wrote: I don't know why I'm trying to detail all the reasons why your response pissed me off.

Here's the bottom line. Your response pissed me off. I'm from Missouri. Show me. Show me a twisted frame from an upgraded engine on a Tercel Wagon and I'll believe you. Until then you'll just piss me off.
I had a 1980 Tercel, gutted. It probably weighed about 1800 pounds. These older cars were before engine swaps were really thought of. I was going to put a BlackTop 4AGE, but decided not to. That and the fact it got totalled.

WHY?

The shop I was talking to simply put it, the cars frame is too light, it isn't meant to handle that kind of torque. The 3-AC motor had I think 60hp? Then you're going to switch it to a 200hp/200torque (apprx) motor, and not expect something to happen? Especially with a UNIBODY frame? I was told that I would come off the clutch, and twist my whole frame.

And, if you still don't believe it, then pick up your phone, or get the telegram since you're in missouri, and call a shop that does engine swaps and ask them. What would happen if I took a 1980 Unibody frame if I added a new 2000 engine into it, with over 3x times torque and hp?

Let me lend you some insight. On the roof, I could pierce it with a knife. The metal was extremely thin, if the car flipped, I don't doubt I would have been crushed. If that's just the roof, think about the frame.

Yeah, I'm new to this forum, but sorry, your ignorance pissed me off.

I have not been following this whole thread, so don't know all that was written above. But I thought I'd add a little info just based on the last few posts.

The 'blacktop' 4age (found in the JDM AE111 and some AE115) only produces 165hp and 120ft/lbs. This is measured out of vehicle (no ps, a/c, exhaust, etc.). Most people who install these into AE86s are dissapointed with the power figures. They most often measure around 135hp 110ft/lbs torque at the wheels.

The 3AC generates 62hp and around 80ft/lbs torque. So the blacktop 4age probably only produces about 50% more torque than a 3AC. Torque not hp is what stresses/twists drive trains and chassis. In my experience, most Toyota drivetrains are built to take more power than they are matched with from the factory (makes them last a long time and take lots of abuse). I think I could guarantee that a blacktop 4age would NOT twist the frame of an early tercel. However, an upgraded transmission/flywheel/clutch/driveshafts and brakes would definitely be necessary.

A boosted 4age WOULD cause frame issues with early tercels though for sure. Some extra seam welding and a rollcage would fix these issues pretty fast. An early (145hp) 4agze might be ok, but if one were to go for a later or modded 4agze or build a custom turbo engine, there would definitely be troubles.

If you would like to learn more about putting big power into little cars, do some searches on KP61 Starlet build-ups. I've seen 400whp in these little cars before - and for track use, not drag use! :blink: They are basically the rwd equivalent of the first gen tercel.

goofballz · Post by **goofballz** » Thu Feb 10, 2005 1:58 pm

@GTS

My mistake. If you notice the date on the pic of my old Tercel in the Gallery section you see it has almost been a year.

The 200/200 engine I was reffering to was in the old celicas. I believe it was in the 92-93 celicas only, and it turned out it was AWD (Found in the All-Trac Celicas). At one point I was considering doing that engine. Someone suggested the 3SGTE engine that was found in the old MR2's, but they were a bit expensive.

Then I was told to look at the 4EFTE @ 1.3 litres, with a bigger turbo it was supposed to be decently quick and cheap. Then I started looking at the 4AGE, and 4AGZE. The 4AGZE came with the top-mount supercharger and came in at 175. when I started looking at the newer 4AGE engines, I figured I would go with that over the 4AGZE because it came in at 170 and was N/A. It was newer so it had less mileage and had VVT (Blacktop) I figured if the funds ever came available I would just add a super or turbo to it and it would come out on top of the 4AGZE.

Finally I was looking at Venus and Sunrise and decided to go with the 4AGE Blacktop if possible. The estimated cost was way out of my pocketbook not to mention replacing the belts, pumps, etc.. They also mentioned possibly having to get a custom wire harness which equaled money or knowledge how to do it myself that I wish I had.

For some reason I thought the 4AGE came in @ that HP/Torque (200/200) so my apologies.

EDIT: On a side note, now that I remember what I can, what is the engine name of that one in the AWD celicas? Someone said it was the 3SGTE, but then I was told that engine is in the MR2's and was RWD. Although the AWD celica did have a turbo and the T designation in the MR2 engine shows it is also turbo'd

I would think that putting that AWD Celica engine into a AWD Tercel wouldn't be that bad...

No hijacking intended.

GTSSportCoupe · Post by **GTSSportCoupe** » Thu Feb 10, 2005 2:19 pm

goofballz,

No prob man. It's easy to confuse the engines.

The 3SGTE came in both the Celica Alltrac (ST165, ST185, ST205) and the MR2 Turbo (SW20). The 3SGTE still is made and put in the Alltrac Caldina in Japan. I think the most recent version produces 260hp!!

It's true that no tercel would come close to handling the power of a 3SGTE. I guess it is always possible to attempt a swap of the Alltrac's drive train into a Tercel wagon, but personally I really don't think it would be worth it. It would be WAY too much custom work and expense.

3A-C Power · Post by **3A-C Power** » Thu Feb 10, 2005 6:21 pm

The blacktop has 170HP when we're telling our friends about it - that is the official specification after all. But in our cars it's a different story!