4age swap questions

General discussion about our beloved Tercel 4WD cars
20vtercel
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Post by 20vtercel »

I was asked a question: What did you come across when you swapped in your 4age...

Well, instead of answering privately, i think this is something that everyone should here. It may have been covered and thoes that have doen it can add to this thread....


First things first. Most 4age's that you'll find now-a-days are for FWD cars ie: red tops, silver and black tops. This means that right off the hop, you have a problem cuz the throttle body points to the rear of the engine. In the case of the JDM 20v engines, so does the distributor. But not to worry, the intakes can be cut and modified to point in the other direction and NO MATTER WHAT ANYONE TELLS YOU...there IS enough room to put the 20v in w/o smashing the firewall. and yes, you can swap caps/rotors with ease!!! If you have acess to a blue top or are using a 4agze, then forget all that and continue to the rest of this thread...

second, the engine is higher due to the camshafts. Now, there are ways around this... one, put a cowl hood on, make your car look like a stang. two, you can lower your engine but you still have to mod your hood some to get it to fit. three, this is where you can take your frustrations out on the car with your trusty 40 oz ball pien hammer!!!! :rolleyes:

third, your OEM flywheel won't fit. Hmmmmm, well, there have been discussions on this board on how to fix this and i found that the best one is to re-index the flywheel. (using oem tranny)

fourth, the exhaust is on the wrong side. it will have to be made to work. custom headers (as i did) may be necessary. NOTE: stock center dumps may work however, if they are too close to the starter, it will COOK IT!! Make sure you shield it. If you use custom headers, the oil bung must be swapped with your 3/4A one (its shorter and not on an angle)

fifth, fuel. I used an external pump from a 200sx turbo. cut and paste. It's that simple. Wire to the oil switch. It will be on only when there is oil pressure. IE: if there is a fire, the engine stalls, it will not continue to pump.

sixth, ECU. Couple words ---> STAND ALONE SYSTEM. if this is not in your budget, the the stock ecu will be fine. If wiring is not your strong point, then get someone to help you. It's not hard but your eyes will decieve you after about 30min of soldering and re-soldering mistakes. Everything is color coded. For example: There are 2 yellow wires going to a 20v AFM (air flow meter). One is yellow, blue stripe and the other is yellow, light blue stripe. After a while it's hard to distinguish the two not to mention the injector yellow, light blue stripe, red dot and yellow, light blue stripe, orange dot!!! See what i mean??? Fresh eyes are a good thing!!

other than that, all brackets and OEM accessories will fit. Some will have to be back spaced. Steel high pressure water pipe (industrial stuff) will suffice. Some pump pullies might need to be replaced, however your stock pulley and harmonic balancer will bolt onto the crank of the 4age. The engine sits forward more (why i don't know) but you can still get everything back in. THe rad is a little tight but it still works. If you don't like it so close, you may have to move it forward some!!! Run all you lines along the exterior of the car (outside engine compartment behind fender) and route intake tubes there too!!!


THis is all I can think of right now. I'll sleep on it and I'm sure I'll remember more.

One thing to remember in any "custom" work is that it will not be done in a weekend and that this is what I incountered and you may have a different (better) way of doing things. THere is always more than one way to skin a cat!!

EDIT:

Another thing is that i have alot of automotive connections and alot of specialized tools (mig welders and benders etc) but all this was done with the usual engine cranes and was on GRASS THE WHOLE TIME. no fancy shop with lifts etc cuz i'm poor!!! :lol: so don't feel threatened!!!

Good luck

EDIT #2:

Elaborated on wiring problem!!!
'84 Tercel HB, 202hp Turbocharged 20v, 4WD, Lowered, Custom exhaust, Mangles Rims with Avid V4 Rubber! Hola!!
Jonsblckhwk
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Post by Jonsblckhwk »

awesome :D :D :D

you are the greatest
thank you for taking the time to do all this for everyone
97 toyota tercel blackhawk(http://www.cardomain.com/id/Jonsblckhwk)<br><br>as soon as it goes to auction...<br>1986 toyota tercel HB<br><br>as soon as i have the money...<br>JDM AE101 4A-GZE BABY!<br><a href='http://board.tercelonline.com' target='_blank'>http://board.tercelonline.com</a> <br><a href='http://www.northeasterntuners.com' target='_blank'>http://www.northeasterntuners.com</a> <br><a href='http://www.toyrolla.com' target='_blank'>http://www.toyrolla.com</a> <br><a href='http://www.toyotanation.com' target='_blank'>http://www.toyotanation.com</a> <br>
Typrus
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Post by Typrus »

I may as well throw in something you said earlier to me.
If you are going to be putting in an engine of this power and still want a straight frame :D then you are going to need something like a rollcage to aborb the torsion effect.

Would you mind re-explaining the full-tube frame chassis here?
RIP 10-07- 1984 Toyota Tercel SR5 4wd Wagen 6 speed

RIP 04-05- 1986 Toyota Tercel SR5 4wd Wagen 6 speed

1st Terc- 1987 Tercel SR5 4wd Wagon 6-speed, Sadly cubed

1985 Tercel Standard 4wd Wagon w/ 3-speed auto, Living a happy life in Boulder last I knew
Jonsblckhwk
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Post by Jonsblckhwk »

or you could give us a link
97 toyota tercel blackhawk(http://www.cardomain.com/id/Jonsblckhwk)<br><br>as soon as it goes to auction...<br>1986 toyota tercel HB<br><br>as soon as i have the money...<br>JDM AE101 4A-GZE BABY!<br><a href='http://board.tercelonline.com' target='_blank'>http://board.tercelonline.com</a> <br><a href='http://www.northeasterntuners.com' target='_blank'>http://www.northeasterntuners.com</a> <br><a href='http://www.toyrolla.com' target='_blank'>http://www.toyrolla.com</a> <br><a href='http://www.toyotanation.com' target='_blank'>http://www.toyotanation.com</a> <br>
russkiypenguin1
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Post by russkiypenguin1 »

Help me out. What does it mean to reindex a flywheel? Have a machine shop grind it to the correct shape?

Where did you physically install the fuel pump? Somewhere under the hood or back by the gas tank?
20vtercel
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Post by 20vtercel »

russkiypenguin wrote: Help me out.  What does it mean to reindex a flywheel?  Have a machine shop grind it to the correct shape?

Where did you physically install the fuel pump?  Somewhere under the hood or back by the gas tank?
Ok indexing is the term used to evenly space someting. In other words, re-indexing the flywheel means to weld in the current 6hole bolt pattern and re-drill the 4age 8hole bolt pattern. This must be done by a machine shop cuz it has to be balanced properly after welding. If not it could thro your bearing a miss and perhaps even take your legs off when the flywheel comes apart!!!

The fuel pump has to be pure gravity fed it cannot be higher than the lowest point of the fuel system. I placed it in front of my suspension link to the lower control arm in the rear.

Just incase youz out there haven't seen it, and perhaps think I'm jerken your chain...

<a href='http://pg.photos.yahoo.com/ph/tercel4ag ... /my_photos' target='_blank'>http://pg.photos.yahoo.com/ph/tercel4ag ... _photos</a>

IT DOES FIT...mooohahahahha moooooohahahaha
'84 Tercel HB, 202hp Turbocharged 20v, 4WD, Lowered, Custom exhaust, Mangles Rims with Avid V4 Rubber! Hola!!
20vtercel
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Post by 20vtercel »

Typrus wrote: Would you mind re-explaining the full-tube frame chassis here?
placement: (theoretical Utra-stiff cage)

frame behind fender up along a-pillar, follow roofline to back and down to the rear subframe bumper mount - both sides

upright along b-pillar from unit connector U channel to upper bar described above - both sides

upright inline with rear shock tower to upper bar

Connect all bases along floor pan (rocker panels) inside car.

connect front at top of windshield, and top-underside of dashboard

Connect b-pillar and c-pillars

Connect f/r shock towers


Now, you can stop here. Most people do not go any further but you can continue...


place triangular brace from top of b-pillar to bottom of a-pillar - both sides

place trangular brace from top of drivers b-pillar to bottom passenger b-pillar (opposite for RHD vehicles) you can make an 'x' pattern here but it is not necessary.

Do the same at the c-pillar unless you have a hatchback then it's not necessary unless you have a SBC 350 under the bonnet!!!

run tube thru firewall from top underside fender to rad support, allong rad support and back to the a-pillar tube on the other side. Run a tube at the base of the firewall where it meets the frame and run it along the frame to the lower rad support, along rad support and back again. Connect the lower tube chassis to the upper tube chassis with supports where the rad support meets the fender on both sides. Repeat same for trunk area.


Materials that can be used are sched 40 pipe 1.5" - 1.75" dia. (commonly used for usual applications but not necessarily best for your application.)

Full tube chassis....

place tube under vehicle along subframes to connect the two bottom sub-frame sections....that is all you now have a basic tube frame chassis and you can put a bbc 454 under the hood and tub/narrow the rear for a lightnign fast drag car!!!
'84 Tercel HB, 202hp Turbocharged 20v, 4WD, Lowered, Custom exhaust, Mangles Rims with Avid V4 Rubber! Hola!!
Jonsblckhwk
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Post by Jonsblckhwk »

about how much would the tubular chasis cost at a shop ballpark anyways?
97 toyota tercel blackhawk(http://www.cardomain.com/id/Jonsblckhwk)<br><br>as soon as it goes to auction...<br>1986 toyota tercel HB<br><br>as soon as i have the money...<br>JDM AE101 4A-GZE BABY!<br><a href='http://board.tercelonline.com' target='_blank'>http://board.tercelonline.com</a> <br><a href='http://www.northeasterntuners.com' target='_blank'>http://www.northeasterntuners.com</a> <br><a href='http://www.toyrolla.com' target='_blank'>http://www.toyrolla.com</a> <br><a href='http://www.toyotanation.com' target='_blank'>http://www.toyotanation.com</a> <br>
20vtercel
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Post by 20vtercel »

Jonsblckhwk wrote: about how much would the tubular chasis cost at a shop ballpark anyways?
lots. Cuz your just going for chassis regidity, I bought a bender ($200CDN) and used 1.5" and 2" galvanized conduit pipe ($12CDN per 10' length). It bends nicely and provides the strength to counteract the torque. Not great for a roll over but it's better than nothing. Sched 40 tube is expensive. It's a special grade of steel that is mandatory for track cars. Mine passed tech inspection but i'm not sure why??!!! <_<
'84 Tercel HB, 202hp Turbocharged 20v, 4WD, Lowered, Custom exhaust, Mangles Rims with Avid V4 Rubber! Hola!!
Jonsblckhwk
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Post by Jonsblckhwk »

thats too bad you dont live closer, i would pay you to make it for me and then i would have a shop weld it on.
Bah
the cars frame should be fine without it right?
its not a requirement is it?(no rol cage or any bracing)
97 toyota tercel blackhawk(http://www.cardomain.com/id/Jonsblckhwk)<br><br>as soon as it goes to auction...<br>1986 toyota tercel HB<br><br>as soon as i have the money...<br>JDM AE101 4A-GZE BABY!<br><a href='http://board.tercelonline.com' target='_blank'>http://board.tercelonline.com</a> <br><a href='http://www.northeasterntuners.com' target='_blank'>http://www.northeasterntuners.com</a> <br><a href='http://www.toyrolla.com' target='_blank'>http://www.toyrolla.com</a> <br><a href='http://www.toyotanation.com' target='_blank'>http://www.toyotanation.com</a> <br>
20vtercel
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Post by 20vtercel »

Jonsblckhwk wrote: thats too bad you dont live closer, i would pay you to make it for me and then i would have a shop weld it on.
Bah
the cars frame should be fine without it right?
its not a requirement is it?(no rol cage or any bracing)
sure...why not...go ahead!!! :huh:
'84 Tercel HB, 202hp Turbocharged 20v, 4WD, Lowered, Custom exhaust, Mangles Rims with Avid V4 Rubber! Hola!!
russkiypenguin1
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Post by russkiypenguin1 »

What did you use for an air cleaner filter box?
Jonsblckhwk
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Post by Jonsblckhwk »

did you use any kinda of bracing?

i have heard of this foam type stuff you can spray that will make the frame more rigid, will that work?

what happened to your frame and why?

BTW i got a custom weld in roll cage estimated @ 950 shhipped plus the cost of welding.
i think ill be taking it easy for a while as i cant afford that on top of everything else :(
97 toyota tercel blackhawk(http://www.cardomain.com/id/Jonsblckhwk)<br><br>as soon as it goes to auction...<br>1986 toyota tercel HB<br><br>as soon as i have the money...<br>JDM AE101 4A-GZE BABY!<br><a href='http://board.tercelonline.com' target='_blank'>http://board.tercelonline.com</a> <br><a href='http://www.northeasterntuners.com' target='_blank'>http://www.northeasterntuners.com</a> <br><a href='http://www.toyrolla.com' target='_blank'>http://www.toyrolla.com</a> <br><a href='http://www.toyotanation.com' target='_blank'>http://www.toyotanation.com</a> <br>
russkiypenguin1
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Post by russkiypenguin1 »

I'm actually a bit confused by the sudden obsession over the need for frame rigidification. I watch quite a bit of shows on TV about people SERIOUSLY upgrading their HP and they never have to boost their frames. I mean if this is just a "do it because you feel like it" thing then I'm fine with that, but I don't really understand why people are trying to justify it. Bent frames come from collisions or REALLY REALLY powerful engines like a 500HP big block. Not an un-turboed 4cylinder swap out.

I hope this isn't offensive to anyone. I'm not trying to offend anyone, but I don't actually understand why a few people are so interested in this.
Jonsblckhwk
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Post by Jonsblckhwk »

russkiypenguin wrote: I'm actually a bit confused by the sudden obsession over the need for frame rigidification. I watch quite a bit of shows on TV about people SERIOUSLY upgrading their HP and they never have to boost their frames. I mean if this is just a "do it because you feel like it" thing then I'm fine with that, but I don't really understand why people are trying to justify it. Bent frames come from collisions or REALLY REALLY powerful engines like a 500HP big block. Not an un-turboed 4cylinder swap out.

I hope this isn't offensive to anyone. I'm not trying to offend anyone, but I don't actually understand why a few people are so interested in this.
im only interested because i dont want to invest 5k, that i dont have, into a car only to destroy it

*when i day i dont have it i mean as of right now instead of saving for college im saving for a car and im halfway through my senior year...

and i still plan on going to college im just taking the cheaper route by going to jr college for 2 years and transfering
97 toyota tercel blackhawk(http://www.cardomain.com/id/Jonsblckhwk)<br><br>as soon as it goes to auction...<br>1986 toyota tercel HB<br><br>as soon as i have the money...<br>JDM AE101 4A-GZE BABY!<br><a href='http://board.tercelonline.com' target='_blank'>http://board.tercelonline.com</a> <br><a href='http://www.northeasterntuners.com' target='_blank'>http://www.northeasterntuners.com</a> <br><a href='http://www.toyrolla.com' target='_blank'>http://www.toyrolla.com</a> <br><a href='http://www.toyotanation.com' target='_blank'>http://www.toyotanation.com</a> <br>
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