You took the blue pill...keith wrote:At the risk of sounding a bit sensitive here, I never identified with my captors and I never had to be deprogrammed when I retired. The only thing that I had to deal with in retirement is the misperceptions that people have of the military.
I'm So Screwed
Give a boy a gun-give a biatch a cell phone-and pretty soon you almost got yourself a police state.
Orwell said: War is peace! Freedom is slavery. Ignorance is strength...
Orwell said: War is peace! Freedom is slavery. Ignorance is strength...
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ARCHINSTL
- Goldie Forever
- Posts: 6369
- Joined: Sat Apr 30, 2005 1:52 pm
- My tercel:: Goldie is a 1986 SR5 attualmente con Weber/also owned the first T4WD in STL in late '82
- Location: Kirkwood, a 'burb of St. Louis
This is an interesting and quite accurate observation.keith wrote: Sometimes the harshest judges are others who have been in the same situation, but I think part of that is the fear that comes with knowing that inches can make all the difference. That is, that inside, they know they may have been just inches or seconds away from the same thing.
A comment, while unrelated to your context, is one made while I was in Basic in 1964 and while a spectator at a couple of Courts-martial (I was supposed to relate my experiences of "Military Justice" to my platoon). The corporal who was my mentor mentioned that an EM, in some instances, could choose between a panel of fellow EMs (perforce, senior/lifers) or various ranks of officers: He unofficially advised to never choose the EMs, as they would be much harsher on one because they "had to show the officers" they could be judges and they realized that they, too, could have committed the infraction, given circumstances.
Personally, I think he gave the officers too much credit, as the "justice" I saw meted out that day smacked of anything but, given the infractions. One flaw which seemed quite evident, and which I did not point out to my guide (for fear of Permanent Latrine Orderly status) was that the junior officers on the panel would hardly dare express an opinion different from their seniors...they knew it rolled downhill as well.
Again, vastly different context than yours, but certainly valid - it's evident in civilian life as well.
Tom M.
Last edited by ARCHINSTL on Sun Jan 28, 2007 12:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.
T4WD augury?
"Oh, do not ask, 'What is it?' Let us go and make our visit."
T.S. Eliot - "The Love Song of J. Alfred Prufrock"
"Now and then we had a hope that, if we lived and were good, God would permit us to be pirates."
Mark Twain
"Oh, do not ask, 'What is it?' Let us go and make our visit."
T.S. Eliot - "The Love Song of J. Alfred Prufrock"
"Now and then we had a hope that, if we lived and were good, God would permit us to be pirates."
Mark Twain
I couldn't agree more - it seems that in too many hierarchies/bureaucracies that the 'emperors' above one 'are wearing no clothes', but who would dare to point out the obvious for fear of the repercussions that would surely follow?... was that the junior officers on the panel would hardly dare express an opinion different from their seniors...they knew it rolled downhill as well.
Again, vastly different context than yours, but certainly valid - it's evident in civilian life as well.
1964 was a lot different than the armed forces after the end of the draft. The movie "Cinderella Liberty" was pretty accurate of the ere. That pretty much ended by the late 60"s. I went in in 69 and the Navy was going through changes that many of the "lifers" were unable to deal with. In 1970, Adm Zumwalt became CNO and made dramatic changes. By the time I got into leadership positions, you just didn't take someone to "mast", which is the lowest level of judgement and punishment allowed under the UCMJ, unless they committed a very serious crime or you could document progressive counseling and warnings. Generally that means that someone has to commit an infraction at least 5 times. The first mast generally results in a small fine, a couple days restriction, some extra duty and a suspended bust. Most get the message by then. If they don't, they are generally processed for UD or Big Chicken Dinner (BCD, Bad Conduct Discharge).
Back in the early 60's, any LTH (less than honorable) discharge made it difficult to find a good job. After Vietnam, it almost became a good thing to have, today it doesn't seem to make much difference. Usually, those with an LTH don't make good employees and it soon shows up in their employment history. For those, it would have happened anyway. There are a few who for whatever reason just cannot adapt to military life and do make good employees, most of them were honest with their chain of command, did not get into serious trouble and received a General Discharge.
One thing is still true, you don't want senior enlisted on your Courts Martial panel, they tend to be harsher, but it has nothing to do with trying to kiss up or fear of the officers. The JO's are less afraid of bucking the SO's on the panel because the SO's are not in their chain of command. They are a little more open minded.
Clarence Darrow once said that if you go before a military Courts Martial, you are probably guilty. In a civilian judicial system, once indicted, its the prosecution will do anything to get a guilty verdict. This is why the innocence project is finding and proving the innocence of so many people in prison. In the military justice system, your first line of defense is the prosecution. They simply do not attempt to prosecute anyone who they are not convinced is guilt and know they can prove it.
Back in the early 60's, any LTH (less than honorable) discharge made it difficult to find a good job. After Vietnam, it almost became a good thing to have, today it doesn't seem to make much difference. Usually, those with an LTH don't make good employees and it soon shows up in their employment history. For those, it would have happened anyway. There are a few who for whatever reason just cannot adapt to military life and do make good employees, most of them were honest with their chain of command, did not get into serious trouble and received a General Discharge.
One thing is still true, you don't want senior enlisted on your Courts Martial panel, they tend to be harsher, but it has nothing to do with trying to kiss up or fear of the officers. The JO's are less afraid of bucking the SO's on the panel because the SO's are not in their chain of command. They are a little more open minded.
Clarence Darrow once said that if you go before a military Courts Martial, you are probably guilty. In a civilian judicial system, once indicted, its the prosecution will do anything to get a guilty verdict. This is why the innocence project is finding and proving the innocence of so many people in prison. In the military justice system, your first line of defense is the prosecution. They simply do not attempt to prosecute anyone who they are not convinced is guilt and know they can prove it.
Man o' man!
The Navy certainly has changed, hasn't it? I went to mast for having an empty beer can in my barracks room and got 45/45 1/2pay for 2 months. Never had any other discilpine issues before that. Afterward, I associated with some of the wrong people and they tried busting me for drug use. Problem was, their evidence consisted of the sworn statement of a kid in the brig who was looking to reduce his sentence and about 15 negative drug screenings. They changed my charges from use to distribution. I requested courts marital instead of mast. They gave my original date to another kid whom they thought they had a "better" case against. When he walked at his arraignment, they moved my date and the dates of about 6 other kids to "INDEF." I waited, on restriction in lieu of arrest, for a court martial date for 3 months. Finally I had enough and opted out of the military. I was 19 when I went in and 21 when I got out. Nowadays I hear crazy stories of drug use, prostitution (yes, female service members turning tricks) dereliction of duty, drunkenness, etc and most of it gets a slap on the wrist. I guess that's the difference between a "peacetime" military and a "wartime" military. I did get 2 years of electronics training, though, and I got to keep my NEC. I also learned how not to be a dumbass. Still, I regret leaving on bad terms.
As far as all the conspiracies go, those in power are always looking for ways to remain in power, and on every level. Your boss fires the guy who is sooooo good at his job that he threatens to take his place. Government officials spend over half the time they are in office campaigning to "suck up" to the masses so that they will keep their position of power. As the masses get larger, we get more complacent and more removed from government. We (Americans) look down our noses at other countires like Iraq or Israel or Canada or Russia, but we're all the same. We all face the same problems. It only takes an ounce of corruption to completely muck up an entire well-meaning government. The rich always get richer and the poor always get poorer. We in the US and other similar countries, have it easy. What would we think about life if we weren't able to calmly discuss conspiracies and the Illuminati over our lattes. Ask the average joe in afghanistan what he thinks about government mind control and he'll probably tell you that he just wants to feed his kids and have them all come home from school today without getting shot. I know parents who have to fight with their kids to get them to go to school. Kids in other countires brave bullets, bombs, rape, and persecution just to learn to read. What would we do if we had suicide bombers in our streets? What would we do if we were suddenly "Liberated" by China? Gun Control? SURE!!! Ask 6 million jews in europe if they thought gun control in germany in 1938 was a good idea. And by the way, why didn't the MILLIONS of honest citizens fight back against the Nazi's during WWII? People by and large are sheep. Populations don't want to be secure, they want to think and feel that they are secure with no risk to their personal body or image. We want HDTV and WiFi and 220 different kinds of cereal. We want to be "cool" and accepted as "normal" by our peers, not prepared to defend our lives and liberties at all costs. We scoff at the guy who mentions the government coverups and the "New World Order" because he's crazy and we're afraid that he may be right. Want to be secure? Buy guns, buy ammo, learn to use and respect them both. Plan for any disaster. Then get to know your neighbors well and help them do the same. Raise your kids right. Teach them values like discipline and pride and honor and courage. Pay attention to local, national, and world issues, and vote the issues. Do not simply "side" with any "party." We're all human.
Ben Franklin said that those who would trade liberty for security receive neither.
I'm done ranting now, sorry if anyone is offended......back to my french press arabica bean coffee....
The Navy certainly has changed, hasn't it? I went to mast for having an empty beer can in my barracks room and got 45/45 1/2pay for 2 months. Never had any other discilpine issues before that. Afterward, I associated with some of the wrong people and they tried busting me for drug use. Problem was, their evidence consisted of the sworn statement of a kid in the brig who was looking to reduce his sentence and about 15 negative drug screenings. They changed my charges from use to distribution. I requested courts marital instead of mast. They gave my original date to another kid whom they thought they had a "better" case against. When he walked at his arraignment, they moved my date and the dates of about 6 other kids to "INDEF." I waited, on restriction in lieu of arrest, for a court martial date for 3 months. Finally I had enough and opted out of the military. I was 19 when I went in and 21 when I got out. Nowadays I hear crazy stories of drug use, prostitution (yes, female service members turning tricks) dereliction of duty, drunkenness, etc and most of it gets a slap on the wrist. I guess that's the difference between a "peacetime" military and a "wartime" military. I did get 2 years of electronics training, though, and I got to keep my NEC. I also learned how not to be a dumbass. Still, I regret leaving on bad terms.
As far as all the conspiracies go, those in power are always looking for ways to remain in power, and on every level. Your boss fires the guy who is sooooo good at his job that he threatens to take his place. Government officials spend over half the time they are in office campaigning to "suck up" to the masses so that they will keep their position of power. As the masses get larger, we get more complacent and more removed from government. We (Americans) look down our noses at other countires like Iraq or Israel or Canada or Russia, but we're all the same. We all face the same problems. It only takes an ounce of corruption to completely muck up an entire well-meaning government. The rich always get richer and the poor always get poorer. We in the US and other similar countries, have it easy. What would we think about life if we weren't able to calmly discuss conspiracies and the Illuminati over our lattes. Ask the average joe in afghanistan what he thinks about government mind control and he'll probably tell you that he just wants to feed his kids and have them all come home from school today without getting shot. I know parents who have to fight with their kids to get them to go to school. Kids in other countires brave bullets, bombs, rape, and persecution just to learn to read. What would we do if we had suicide bombers in our streets? What would we do if we were suddenly "Liberated" by China? Gun Control? SURE!!! Ask 6 million jews in europe if they thought gun control in germany in 1938 was a good idea. And by the way, why didn't the MILLIONS of honest citizens fight back against the Nazi's during WWII? People by and large are sheep. Populations don't want to be secure, they want to think and feel that they are secure with no risk to their personal body or image. We want HDTV and WiFi and 220 different kinds of cereal. We want to be "cool" and accepted as "normal" by our peers, not prepared to defend our lives and liberties at all costs. We scoff at the guy who mentions the government coverups and the "New World Order" because he's crazy and we're afraid that he may be right. Want to be secure? Buy guns, buy ammo, learn to use and respect them both. Plan for any disaster. Then get to know your neighbors well and help them do the same. Raise your kids right. Teach them values like discipline and pride and honor and courage. Pay attention to local, national, and world issues, and vote the issues. Do not simply "side" with any "party." We're all human.
Ben Franklin said that those who would trade liberty for security receive neither.
I'm done ranting now, sorry if anyone is offended......back to my french press arabica bean coffee....
French Pressed Arabica eh... Maui blend in the percolator works for me, but I do have a taste for better coffee's... I'd rather experiment with syrups and flavorings with my espresso machine than pay an indifferent Barista to do it for me...
Guns? I have 2. Do they work? I wish. Could I afford ammo? I wish. My Nambu 8mm Type 14 Japanese semi-automatic pistol is in great shape. $8 a round? You want to buy my ammo? Or how about my bolt-action Arisaka 7mm Japanese sniper rifle? $6 or so a round. Heck, they and my 1700's Katana from Japan are collectors items. Thus why they remain hidden.
I know how to use guns. My parents think they are the devil and must be avoided at all costs. I think everyone needs to take Hunters Safety (a class I plan to take when I can find fundage) and hook in with their NRA. Not so everyone can go shooting each other, heck no. So people can learn respect for these powerful tools and help to perhaps better protect from their misuse.
Does that mean everyone has to be able to hit a Sobe bottle at 75 yards with a .357 Magnum revolver? No, but it means I could last I checked >.< But does it mean that they will be better prepared for the day they are faced with the threat of a gun, or have one put in their hands for whatever reason? Yes.
I try not to get too complacent. But sometimes in that very quest I can ruin my attempts at understanding. For instance, I do not pay attention to the news. I can't stand any more depression in my life. Does this make me worse off in some instances? Probably. Does this mean that I didn't hear about 9/11 until something like 9 o'clock MTN (11 o'clock in New York)? Yes. Did that dull its effect? No.
I try not to be brainwashed. For instance, fanatics here accusing the entire Islamic population of the world of being crazed aggressive lunatics just makes me laugh. Martyr's for their faith? The suicide bombers over there, most of them are simply that to the eyes of their own religion. Martyrdom is not so easy to attain as blowing yourself up. Just like in Christianity, suicide is a sin not to be forgiven. How many people know that? How many times have I heard people mocking Arabs in Fort Collins? "Go back to the desert you camel jockey!" Too many. If everyone was so evil as to transpose the sins of a few onto the mass, where would any of us be? Again, for instance, I know several Germans who absolutely hate this whole situation that has happened under Bush (I'm trying to word that carefully. Nothing can be blamed on a single person that requires such a chain of authority) and hate what America is doing, but they think I'm an ok guy. They think the other people we were hanging out with in Missouri were pretty cool people. Though, I suppose this kind of does put us as sheep, more or less. The government over us is doing things we may not approve of, but we just idly fidget around rather than REALLY going forth and getting something done. (shrug)
I don't know... I won't get too much into it. Its a heated topic... Race, religion, individuality....
Though, on another comment you made.... I really could use a good de-dumbassification. lol
Guns? I have 2. Do they work? I wish. Could I afford ammo? I wish. My Nambu 8mm Type 14 Japanese semi-automatic pistol is in great shape. $8 a round? You want to buy my ammo? Or how about my bolt-action Arisaka 7mm Japanese sniper rifle? $6 or so a round. Heck, they and my 1700's Katana from Japan are collectors items. Thus why they remain hidden.
I know how to use guns. My parents think they are the devil and must be avoided at all costs. I think everyone needs to take Hunters Safety (a class I plan to take when I can find fundage) and hook in with their NRA. Not so everyone can go shooting each other, heck no. So people can learn respect for these powerful tools and help to perhaps better protect from their misuse.
Does that mean everyone has to be able to hit a Sobe bottle at 75 yards with a .357 Magnum revolver? No, but it means I could last I checked >.< But does it mean that they will be better prepared for the day they are faced with the threat of a gun, or have one put in their hands for whatever reason? Yes.
I try not to get too complacent. But sometimes in that very quest I can ruin my attempts at understanding. For instance, I do not pay attention to the news. I can't stand any more depression in my life. Does this make me worse off in some instances? Probably. Does this mean that I didn't hear about 9/11 until something like 9 o'clock MTN (11 o'clock in New York)? Yes. Did that dull its effect? No.
I try not to be brainwashed. For instance, fanatics here accusing the entire Islamic population of the world of being crazed aggressive lunatics just makes me laugh. Martyr's for their faith? The suicide bombers over there, most of them are simply that to the eyes of their own religion. Martyrdom is not so easy to attain as blowing yourself up. Just like in Christianity, suicide is a sin not to be forgiven. How many people know that? How many times have I heard people mocking Arabs in Fort Collins? "Go back to the desert you camel jockey!" Too many. If everyone was so evil as to transpose the sins of a few onto the mass, where would any of us be? Again, for instance, I know several Germans who absolutely hate this whole situation that has happened under Bush (I'm trying to word that carefully. Nothing can be blamed on a single person that requires such a chain of authority) and hate what America is doing, but they think I'm an ok guy. They think the other people we were hanging out with in Missouri were pretty cool people. Though, I suppose this kind of does put us as sheep, more or less. The government over us is doing things we may not approve of, but we just idly fidget around rather than REALLY going forth and getting something done. (shrug)
I don't know... I won't get too much into it. Its a heated topic... Race, religion, individuality....
Though, on another comment you made.... I really could use a good de-dumbassification. lol
RIP 10-07- 1984 Toyota Tercel SR5 4wd Wagen 6 speed
RIP 04-05- 1986 Toyota Tercel SR5 4wd Wagen 6 speed
1st Terc- 1987 Tercel SR5 4wd Wagon 6-speed, Sadly cubed
1985 Tercel Standard 4wd Wagon w/ 3-speed auto, Living a happy life in Boulder last I knew
RIP 04-05- 1986 Toyota Tercel SR5 4wd Wagen 6 speed
1st Terc- 1987 Tercel SR5 4wd Wagon 6-speed, Sadly cubed
1985 Tercel Standard 4wd Wagon w/ 3-speed auto, Living a happy life in Boulder last I knew
Yeah, sorry 'bout the thread hi-jacking. I don't usually discuss personal points of view in regards to any "hot button" issues, but when I do, it all comes pouring out. No 2 people can ever fully agree on anything, no matter how similar their views may be, because everyone interprets everything differently. All we can do is respect each other's individuality and look out for each other.
In regards to the derby, man was that a heart breaker. I had my boy out in the garage a week before the derby de-burring and polishing his axles and wheels. I applied the pencil lead to the body, axles, and wheels and then the graphite lube to the axles. I showed him how to true his axles and square them to the body. Then I tested it on the hard floor and it ran perfectly straight and smooth. I told him that this was now "tuned" and was "race ready" and that it could very well be a trophy car, but that it was NOT a toy until AFTER the race.
Then I had to fly to Phoenix.
While I was gone he decided to play demolition derby with the car and snapped out one of the front axles and broke a hunk off of the car body. I got back the night before the derby and was able to glue it all back together, but it was no longer square and it wobbled at the bottom of the track. The bummer is that he was an easy 4-5 car lengths ahead of everyone else on the downhill, but he would get hung up on the center rail at the bottom straight-away and would be passed. I showed him what was happening during the race and he was really sad. But he swears that next year he's not gonna play with it after he tunes it.
Watching all the other cars perform, he would have easily taken 1st overall. He ended up with 3rd in his den, and a good lesson.
In regards to the derby, man was that a heart breaker. I had my boy out in the garage a week before the derby de-burring and polishing his axles and wheels. I applied the pencil lead to the body, axles, and wheels and then the graphite lube to the axles. I showed him how to true his axles and square them to the body. Then I tested it on the hard floor and it ran perfectly straight and smooth. I told him that this was now "tuned" and was "race ready" and that it could very well be a trophy car, but that it was NOT a toy until AFTER the race.
Then I had to fly to Phoenix.
While I was gone he decided to play demolition derby with the car and snapped out one of the front axles and broke a hunk off of the car body. I got back the night before the derby and was able to glue it all back together, but it was no longer square and it wobbled at the bottom of the track. The bummer is that he was an easy 4-5 car lengths ahead of everyone else on the downhill, but he would get hung up on the center rail at the bottom straight-away and would be passed. I showed him what was happening during the race and he was really sad. But he swears that next year he's not gonna play with it after he tunes it.
Watching all the other cars perform, he would have easily taken 1st overall. He ended up with 3rd in his den, and a good lesson.