Camshaft

General discussion about our beloved Tercel 4WD cars
Typrus
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Camshaft

Postby Typrus » Sun Dec 17, 2006 1:51 pm

Cam Lift (Exhaust):.213"
Cam Lift (Intake):.213"
Duration at .050" Lobe Lift (Exhaust):204 Deg
Duration at .050" Lobe Lift (Intake):204 Deg
Valve Lash (Exhaust):.012" H
Valve Lash (Intake):.008" H

NAPAOnline
1984 Toyota Tercel FWD (didn't have a choice) Wagon
Mechanical Cam (exc. 4-Speed Man)


Still apply?

And guess what.... Cam out of an 86 4AC Corolla is the SAME THING!

CEP2291892 - 86 4AC
CEP2291892 - 86 3AC
CEP2291892 - 86 4ALC

Hmmmm....


SCHNEIDER FINALLY POSTED THEIR SPECS!

1- Part No.
2- Grind No.
3- Gross Int. Duration
4- Gross Exh. Duration
5- Int. Duration (.050")
6- Exh. Duration (.050")
7- Int. Valve Lift
8- Exh. Valve Lift
9- Lobe Seperation
10- Int. Valve Lash
11- Exh. Valve Lash
12- Matching componant kit


For all 7 cams, 1 and 12 are "Call"
-2---------3----4-----5----6-----7------8-----9---10-----11
260F-----260-260--220-220--.429"-.429"-106-.008"-.010"
260-70F-260-270--220-230--.429"-.436"-106-.008"-.010"
278F-----278-278--208-208--.435"-.435"-106-.008"-.010"
270-80F-270-280--230-240--.436"-.436"-106-.008"-.010"
284F-----284-284--240-240--.465"-.465"-106-.008"-.010"
280-0F--280--300-240--252-.436"--.436"-106-.008"-.010"
300F-----300-300--256-256--.465"-.465"-106-.012"-.014"

So yeah. The average Intake Valve lift is 0.442" compared with stock .213". Dang.
Average Exhaust Valve lift is 0.443" compared to stock .213". Jeeze...

So you think that these cams would make these engines interference? Would it mess with my plans to deck the head for more compression?

How do I use valve duration in terms of knowing what it does?
RIP 10-07- 1984 Toyota Tercel SR5 4wd Wagen 6 speed

RIP 04-05- 1986 Toyota Tercel SR5 4wd Wagen 6 speed

1st Terc- 1987 Tercel SR5 4wd Wagon 6-speed, Sadly cubed

1985 Tercel Standard 4wd Wagon w/ 3-speed auto, Living a happy life in Boulder last I knew

Rasmus
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Postby Rasmus » Sun Dec 17, 2006 6:15 pm

ask for the paradise racing grind, it isn't listed - its the one that someone took and put a fair amount of R&D into on a 4ac ;)

it's the one i've got.

- R
I love my tercel :)
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keith
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Postby keith » Sun Dec 17, 2006 7:57 pm

Since you have a spare engine, pull the head, put some modeling clay in strategic positions under the valves and put the head back on, without the gasket, and turn over the engine. Now you will know the clearances you now have and can make decisions from that. You could do us a favor by posting the results. This is what the old hot rodders used to do.

Duration affects high rpm, idle and low end torque. To achieve enough breathing at high rpm, the valves need to be open as long as possible. Remember, the higher the rpm, the less time there is to get a charge of fuel/air into the cylinder. The higher the rpm, the more explosions to contribute to hp. If you add port tuning for high rpm, you get the air/fuel moving at high speed to hit the valve as it opens, getting more into the cylinder while the valve is open and creating a vacuum behind in the exhaust to suck the spent gases out of the cylinder and leaving a greater vacuum to suck in that fast moving incoming charge.

But port tuning and long duration means a sacrifice at the low end. You live with a lumpy idle, low vacuum at idle and low torque at low rpm.

A high lift, short duration cam will give you a stronger low end. All of the cams listed will increase hp at the top end because of the high lift. You need to decide what you want out of the tercel and select the best cam.

You may also need to look at the other mods you will need to make to support the cam you select. The engine is a system, all parts need to match. The cam won't do you any good if you can't support it with enough fuel and air on the intake and a free flowing exhaust. Like a chain, the engine is only as strong as its greatest restriction.

Typrus
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Postby Typrus » Sun Dec 17, 2006 8:33 pm

guess I didn't post my plans. This'll be the 5th time today lol.
Holley 5200 Carb (Weber 32/36 DFEV clone)
5-angle port and polish
deck the head for anywhere from .6-1.0 extra compression (from 9.0:1 stock)
Somender Singhs grooves
race-style bearings
High Volume oil pump
try and do tubular equal-length headers
Might do MSD electronic ignition.
Schneider cam
dual-spring valve springs
roller-rockers (if I can find ones that'll fit)

Likely other things. Just all that comes to mind right now.
RIP 10-07- 1984 Toyota Tercel SR5 4wd Wagen 6 speed

RIP 04-05- 1986 Toyota Tercel SR5 4wd Wagen 6 speed

1st Terc- 1987 Tercel SR5 4wd Wagon 6-speed, Sadly cubed

1985 Tercel Standard 4wd Wagon w/ 3-speed auto, Living a happy life in Boulder last I knew

jamiec
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Location: Tasmania Australia

Postby jamiec » Mon Dec 18, 2006 5:18 am

i have just done up my cylinder head for the 3a
motor.before the reco work the car would ping
easly on standard timing.i had 1mm shaved off
the head to up the compression ratio i cut in the
singh grooves one per chamber.could run at 10 deg
advance no ping at all in 5th gear at 1200 rpm up small
hill now run with 12.5 advance very slight ping now and then
on low grade fuel.the low rpm drivability is great now.i can
take off in 2nd gear rather well now to.the grooves are
the best mod ive done in a long time will do them on my
mini engine to.

shogun
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Postby shogun » Mon Dec 18, 2006 8:26 am

the thing about cams, is that to see the good power you have to rev the engine hard, and that exactly is what our oil pumps dont like, believe me i have the engines to prove it, but i guess it could be fun to spin the car 7000+ rpm
tercel 4wd custom suspension, under drive pulley, vented brakes, cold air intake, and plenty more to come

keith
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Postby keith » Mon Dec 18, 2006 7:32 pm

Typrus,

I don't know if it is still in print, but Hot Rod magazine once printed a book titled "Supertuning" If you can find it, you should read it. In its day, it was the most complete authority on high performance engines.

If you get any of those cams, you will need roller rockers and dual valve springs. Before you deck the head, look into high performance pistons. With high compression, you will need to cc the heads to insure all cylinders will have the same compression.

You are aware that a 5 angle valve job means the valves will only last about 30k miles. But thats the price of performance.

If you are using the stock intake manifold with that 32/36 carburator, the cams at the hotter end may be too much, you may not be able to feed them. Personally I like that 278F for this type of vehicle. I think it is also suited to the 32/36 carburator.

I would not bother with the MSD ignition, the stock ignition is just fine. Racing bearings? Again, I coming from the 60's and back then, the bearings in Racing engines had more clearance and required 50w oil. They needed high volume oil pumps designed for this oil. The rods also had to be drilled to handle the high volume of this heavy oil.

Making your own headers? There were formulas for calculating the best diameter tube and best length for any given application.

Those Somender Singh grooves might cut into a water passage if your not careful. Toyota, and most other manufacturers try to maintain a 4mm wall thickness everywhere, it prevents shrinkage and porosity in the aluminum.

keith
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Postby keith » Mon Dec 18, 2006 7:40 pm

Before you cut those grooves, check out this link.

http://cartalk.com/board/showflat.php?C ... w=1#UNREAD

takza
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Postby takza » Tue Dec 19, 2006 5:26 am

I see the same kind of fairly lame excuses and reasonings as to why something won't work...as I do with a lot of newer things for improving combustion and efficiency...mostly by those who haven't done them.

Check here for some real info...also there are some links to sites where they get a bit deeper into the grooves and some other things.

http://mpgresearch.info/viewforum.php?f ... 6ae0eb41e3
Give a boy a gun-give a biatch a cell phone-and pretty soon you almost got yourself a police state.

Orwell said: War is peace! Freedom is slavery. Ignorance is strength...

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Typrus
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Postby Typrus » Tue Dec 19, 2006 10:41 am

Why would they only last 30k miles? I don't get how better airflow will kill my valves...
I am not terceldude here, I actually use this company-
http://www.importperformanceparts.net
Check out Engine Kits. Under HP High Performance kits they have a 4AC kit. Dunno if it'd fit, bore aside. Freaking expensive too.

They carry a TOGA High-Volume pump that fits the 3AC. Its the same part# as the 4AC/4AGE/4AFE, is that right? If it is, then I'd imagine a 4AGE High Pressure/ High Volume pump could be found to bolt up.
The main bearing part #'s are also the same for the TOGA HP bearings. Same for all "A"s. Might suggest a "4" crank would go clean into a "3"?
The rod bearings however differ. RBTO16R-HP for the 3AC, which is shared with the gen-1 4AC/4ALC, then changing to RBTO16L-HP for the rest of the 4AC's, and the 1st gen 4AGE. What difference does the "L" versus "R" make? No freaking clue.
Gold Kit is their Major Kit plus oil pump. Upgrade to TOGA HP bearings, $20 up each. Upgrade to TOGA HV Oil Pump, $50. So $299 base plus $90. Essentially $400.

High performance pistons? For a 3AC? Not going to happen. I still am really warry about an overbore to 4AC size... Thats something like a 2 millimeter overbore... Makes me a bit nervous in an application like mine with all the stuff I want to do. If I did, it'd be easy enough to find some. But you know, at that point, I'd go get a later 4AC block.

I'm very likely going to use a PERMA-COOL engine oil cooler with thermostatic control. If I can, I might use a coolant filtration system, and an engine oil ByPass filtration system. I'll probably be using Schaeffer's Supreme 7000 oil.

Explain why porting is going to hurt me....

And why is evenly decking the head going to have different effects on individual cylinders? I can see how me cutting the grooves myself might have a miniscule effect, but....

How does one properly "cc" a head?
RIP 10-07- 1984 Toyota Tercel SR5 4wd Wagen 6 speed

RIP 04-05- 1986 Toyota Tercel SR5 4wd Wagen 6 speed

1st Terc- 1987 Tercel SR5 4wd Wagon 6-speed, Sadly cubed

1985 Tercel Standard 4wd Wagon w/ 3-speed auto, Living a happy life in Boulder last I knew

keith
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Postby keith » Tue Dec 19, 2006 7:49 pm

You'd be right to be wary of boring out to a 4ac. Did you look at the pictures of the blown engine I posted in the repair section under "What's the best engine to swap into this"? Those walls are only about 4-5 mm thick.

The reason that 5 angle valve jobs don't last as long is that you reduce the seat area. You are trading off longevity for performance. If fact, almost all performance increases are trading longevity for horsepower.

Porting should not hurt anything, unless you go through a wall, but that would take some pretty aggressive grinding. What I was referring to is port tuning. This is fabricating intake manifold runners the same as you would for your exhaust headers. They are great, for one very narrow rpm band, sucks every where else.

Individual combustion chambers in a production engine are not perfectly equal. I've watched molds being made when I worked for Teksid Aluminum. These are the best Aluminum casters in the world and make heads for almost every major automaker in the world. Its still done with a hand grinder. So there are minor differences from cylinder to cylinder.

cc'ing a head is covering the combustion chamber with a piece of glass or plexiglass with a hole in it. With the valves closed and the combustion chamber pointed up, fill the combustion chamber with water from a pipet. With this you get the exact displacement of the combustion chamber. Then you grind selected areas to get all chambers to match exactly. You may have noticed when looking at sites that are selling HP heads that they will specify the combustion chamber size in cc's, those heads have been cc'ed.

With the kind of money you are putting into this engine, why not a good set of pistons?

shogun
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Postby shogun » Wed Dec 20, 2006 12:17 pm

slap a turbo in, don rev as high and get a 4age oil pump, thats how you get power, i think n/a power is to be had in these motors, but the down fall is the bottom end, ive seen diferences in weihgt as high as 5 grams in stock rods, so i guess they woblle at high rpm,


anyways do tell how the cam comes out like
tercel 4wd custom suspension, under drive pulley, vented brakes, cold air intake, and plenty more to come

Typrus
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Postby Typrus » Wed Dec 20, 2006 6:58 pm

Well, my local machine shop offered to "Trim the Rods" meaning to balance them. I think he said to within 1/4 of a gram. $25 per rod. Might shoot for it.

I am worried about my low end. Most of my driving is street in the area of 2000+ RPM, but off-the-line shot is great for steady snow driving or for the very minor off road experiences I have from time to time.
My hope is more to wake the top end up and keep the bottom end more or less as it is. The thought with that is that if you can take enough grunt and increase it, that even if the powerband is moved up, the overall increase will keep the bottom roughly the same. Could just be dreaming though.

Yeah, I've looked at port tuning it. My best bet, I figured, if I went with that was a dual-planer. Somehow.
I have widened the stock intake by anywhere from 1 to 2 mm about 2 inches up the runners. Hard to get further because of the curvature. I gasket-matched it, and as with the head, some spots required huge grinds, some barely any touching at all.

I'll have to try and remember to do that. My "strategic grinding" can be the change of the size of the Singh's grooves. i,e, longer or slightly wider. I don't want to go much more than 1-2 mm deep.

I am nervous about the turbo approach. Though I think I know what turbo to use. A GT15 Garrett. Came stock on VW 1Z TDI engines. Nice little turbo. I do mean little. Not much bigger around than a softball. But it is capable of about 16PSI boost and pretty decent airflow. Keeps up with the 1.9L 90HP 130ft/lb torque turbo-diesel very nicely. The downpipe-turbo mount flange is wacky though....

My biggest concern with this whole project is sufficient supply of sufficiently cool oil. Schaeffer's is stable to about 450 degrees F, versus 9/10 of the other oils stability to a mere 200-250F, but the cooler you can keep it, the better it can do its job, even if breaking down isn't the primary concern.


I am putting about $1000 into this engine so far. I cannot afford to have a 1-time-deal God-aweful expensive custom run of forged pistons special made. If I was going to have anything custom-forged or ground of significant price, it'd be my tranny gears, hands-down. However, if 50 of you came forward willing to spend over a grand on custom pistons, then I'd imagine it could be done.

I'm lucky I can get so much done for so little on this thing right now.


A carb-specialist is helping me make some decisions about my Holley 5200. He's saying I'll likely need a bigger pump jet with a longer shot to compensate for the significantly lumpier cam.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tgFVTQ99XlY
This guy's using essentially the same carb as me- the Weber 32/36 DFEV on his, which is basically what Holley knocked off with the 5200. Note the linkage on the front of his carb.
He has a 282 degree cam and his idle sounds alright to me. And I just love the grumbly sound here..... Hmmmmm....
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sY3AponZ ... ed&search=
Same guy. Sounds like muscle right there....
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LiphB_W2 ... ed&search=
He gets a bit of a drone there........ Would definitly need to be taken care of.... Aero-Turbine anyone?

He does have a 4AG block however. We'll see if my 3A block can stand it before I go with anything too incredible. You know, I'd much rather have a cheap set of pistons blow out the side of my block than some customs.

Maybe I should just shell the $100 and buy an old 4AGE from the salvage yard and use its bottom end.....
RIP 10-07- 1984 Toyota Tercel SR5 4wd Wagen 6 speed

RIP 04-05- 1986 Toyota Tercel SR5 4wd Wagen 6 speed

1st Terc- 1987 Tercel SR5 4wd Wagon 6-speed, Sadly cubed

1985 Tercel Standard 4wd Wagon w/ 3-speed auto, Living a happy life in Boulder last I knew

coltarms
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Postby coltarms » Thu Dec 21, 2006 8:58 am

Not that I'm one to talk (I've spent about $1200 in the last year fixing all sorts of different stuff on my car) but it you're gonna spend $1000 on your engine alone, why not just buy a reman 4A or rebuild and hot-rod out a 4A yourself? I would have done the same here except for that pesky smog check we have here in PDX.....

shogun
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Postby shogun » Thu Dec 21, 2006 9:05 am

that car sounds nice, i found another way to get my carb set up, since i have the twin carb maniful i was planning in puting a pair of small carbs single barrel 38 or 40 mm, and a cam would be nice, but my question is how much vacum do you loose with schneider cams, i dont wanto to end up without brakes or needing a vacum pump
tercel 4wd custom suspension, under drive pulley, vented brakes, cold air intake, and plenty more to come


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