3rd / 4th gear woes

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SirFoxx
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My tercel:: 1981 Toyota Tercel w/ 7age

3rd / 4th gear woes

Post by SirFoxx »

Hello --

I noticed with my tercel that it is starting to become hard to get the transmission into 3rd and 4th gear. When I shift it into either gear, and gently let off the clutch, it will start grinding like you are trying to shift it without using the clutch. Sometimes I can get it into both gears, but it is becoming increasingly difficult to do so. Is there a fix for this, or do I need a new transmission? If it is the latter, I may just sell the car...
1988 DLX 4wd Tercel Wagon w/ weber (RIP)
1985 4wd Tercel SR5 (RIP)
1986 Base 2dr Hatch (RIP / PARTS)
1986 DLX 4wd Tercel Wagon with ???
1985 DLX 2dr Tercel Hatch w/manual swap
1981 2dr Toyota Tercel w/7age (RIP)
1981 3dr hatch Toyota Tercel w/Turbo 4AGE
1981 3dr hatch Toyota Tercel SR-5
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Petros
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My tercel:: '84 Tercel4wd w/extensive mods
Location: Arlington WA USA

Re: 3rd / 4th gear woes

Post by Petros »

pull the console, the boot and the shift lever (remove the large cir-clip) and inspect the plastic busing on the end of the shift lever. It many be sloppy and need to be replaced.

Next I would try the ATF trans flush: put half and aft ATF (auto trans fluid) and cheap gear oil, fill it with 4.1 quarts. drive it for a few days, lightly but get it up to speed for extended period so the trans warms up. Than drain it all out and replace with quality gear oil. Usually it will clean out sludge and metal particles so it will work again. You also might consider adding a manual trans additive that may help it shift. You can also use synthetic gear oil, it is costly but works best if you use half and half syn vs. conventional lube. all synthetic is too slippery and the gear box was not designed for that, it could leak out all the seals and make the syncros act like they are all worn out.

It does not always work, but easier than replacing the trans adn works often enough to give it a try. make sure you get all of the gear oil in it as it requires, see maintenance section of this forum for doing a proper trans refill.

Good luck.
'87 Tercel 4wd SR5 (current engine swap project)
'84 Tercel 4wd (daily driver, with on going mods)
'92 Mazda MPV 4wd (wife's daily driver)
'85 Tercel 4wd DLX auto(daughter's daily driver)
'01 Honda Civic (other daughter's daily driver)
xirdneh
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My tercel:: 87 tercel 4x4 wagon w/reringed engine, 83 tercel 4x4 wagon w/salvaged engine and 4.1 Diff's
Location: seabeck, washington, USA

Re: 3rd / 4th gear woes

Post by xirdneh »

Try to get it out of car before it self destructs and is still fixable
Love those Tercell 4x4 wagons but they sure suffer from road noise.
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SirFoxx
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Posts: 335
Joined: Sun Feb 05, 2017 5:42 pm
My tercel:: 1981 Toyota Tercel w/ 7age

Re: 3rd / 4th gear woes

Post by SirFoxx »

Got some good news and bad news. I did the flush. When I first started driving, 3rd and 4th crunched a bit, but I was able to get them in if I"leaned" on the stick a little. However, the more I drove, the better third got, and the worse 4th got. I can get third in with no crunching, but I cannot get 4th in anymore. As soon as I let off the clutch in 4th, it's immediate grinding.

I'm trying to get my stick out to inspect the plastic ball, however, the stick appears to be stuck. Like really stuck. It won't lift out.

Could that ball cause the shift mechanism to not fully engage 4th, or do I have a possible syncro / shift fork issue?
1988 DLX 4wd Tercel Wagon w/ weber (RIP)
1985 4wd Tercel SR5 (RIP)
1986 Base 2dr Hatch (RIP / PARTS)
1986 DLX 4wd Tercel Wagon with ???
1985 DLX 2dr Tercel Hatch w/manual swap
1981 2dr Toyota Tercel w/7age (RIP)
1981 3dr hatch Toyota Tercel w/Turbo 4AGE
1981 3dr hatch Toyota Tercel SR-5
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Petros
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Posts: 11930
Joined: Sun Jan 28, 2007 6:31 pm
My tercel:: '84 Tercel4wd w/extensive mods
Location: Arlington WA USA

Re: 3rd / 4th gear woes

Post by Petros »

You have to really yank upward on the shift lever to get it free of the linkage. make sure the big circlip is removed, and give it big jerk (do you have one handy? Most people do).

sometimes if the counter shaft or main shaft bearings are really worn and sloppy it will cause enough misalignment where the gears do not want to engage. Usually shift forks and syncros do not wear enough to cause shifting difficulties. Worn out syncros can make it hard to engage without getting a little crunch or gear clashing, but if you double clutch your shift, it should clear that up. If it is just worn syncros you can still drive it without issues, just use double clutch technique, particularly on down shifting. If it is because other parts, particularly the main shaft bearings, are worn out, better plan on rebuilding it, or finding another good transmission. do not wait too long, you could end up trashing the whole trans, right now it can still be rebuilt.

Where are you located? there are a few spare transmissions I have in the Pacific NW that could use a rebuild by forum member Xirdneh that you can get a reasonable price. I rescued them from the wrecking yard to have as a rebuildable core. It would be best if you could pick it up in person, shipping would be pretty costly.
'87 Tercel 4wd SR5 (current engine swap project)
'84 Tercel 4wd (daily driver, with on going mods)
'92 Mazda MPV 4wd (wife's daily driver)
'85 Tercel 4wd DLX auto(daughter's daily driver)
'01 Honda Civic (other daughter's daily driver)
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SirFoxx
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Joined: Sun Feb 05, 2017 5:42 pm
My tercel:: 1981 Toyota Tercel w/ 7age

Re: 3rd / 4th gear woes

Post by SirFoxx »

Petros wrote:You have to really yank upward on the shift lever to get it free of the linkage. make sure the big circlip is removed, and give it big jerk (do you have one handy? Most people do).
yup, everything is removed. I tried yanking, but I didnt want the stick to bash me in the head if it were to suddenly release. And have one of what....?
sometimes if the counter shaft or main shaft bearings are really worn and sloppy it will cause enough misalignment where the gears do not want to engage. Usually shift forks and syncros do not wear enough to cause shifting difficulties. Worn out syncros can make it hard to engage without getting a little crunch or gear clashing, but if you double clutch your shift, it should clear that up. If it is just worn syncros you can still drive it without issues, just use double clutch technique, particularly on down shifting. If it is because other parts, particularly the main shaft bearings, are worn out, better plan on rebuilding it, or finding another good transmission. do not wait too long, you could end up trashing the whole trans, right now it can still be rebuilt.

Where are you located? there are a few spare transmissions I have in the Pacific NW that could use a rebuild by forum member Xirdneh that you can get a reasonable price. I rescued them from the wrecking yard to have as a rebuildable core. It would be best if you could pick it up in person, shipping would be pretty costly.
I'm located in Kansas City. I dont think a half-cross country trip is worth it to me for just a transmission. That's why I had my fingers crossed about the one in Chicago. Unfortunately it was an auto :/. Most of the tercels in the Midwest rust belt have rotted out, I just got lucky that one of the previous owners undercoated the frame on mine.

Seeing that my transmission is on the verge of going out, would the most reasonable thing be to do is sell it? The reason I jump to that conclusion is because I originally bought this car to be my daily beater. My current beater is an '86 town car; while it is super reliable, it is a gas hog. I wanted something cool and unique, while being decent on gas. That's why I got the tercel. 4wd, wagon, sr5 options...Seemed awesome to me at the time.

Now don't get me wrong, most to all old cars need some work. However, my tercel seems like it needs one of everything. I've already replaced all the suspension parts with the exception of the springs, tie rod bushings, 2 head gaskets, carb, rear axle bearings, and the radiator. On top of that, it burns a quart of oil every 150-200 miles. So aside from the almost cooked tranny, the engine could use a rebuild. I'm at a loss at this point as to what to do. I love the car, but it has become a money pit. You guys have any advice?
1988 DLX 4wd Tercel Wagon w/ weber (RIP)
1985 4wd Tercel SR5 (RIP)
1986 Base 2dr Hatch (RIP / PARTS)
1986 DLX 4wd Tercel Wagon with ???
1985 DLX 2dr Tercel Hatch w/manual swap
1981 2dr Toyota Tercel w/7age (RIP)
1981 3dr hatch Toyota Tercel w/Turbo 4AGE
1981 3dr hatch Toyota Tercel SR-5
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Ace
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My tercel:: '83 DLX 4WD Tercel wagon 3AC

Re: 3rd / 4th gear woes

Post by Ace »

I wouldn't be too sentimental about it if it has multiple issues with engine and transmission etc and it seems like too much time and money to fix more things. Retire it or unload it, unless you enjoy working on older cars to squeeze more miles out of it.

But I'm not clear about whether it might just be a shift linkage problem with the transmission which might be a relatively minor repair if you can figure it out.
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Petros
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My tercel:: '84 Tercel4wd w/extensive mods
Location: Arlington WA USA

Re: 3rd / 4th gear woes

Post by Petros »

that is a lot of oil consumption. you can look at it two ways: unload the car on an unsuspecting buyer that will send to the wrecking yard, or to someone willing to do a full restoration (the preferred buyer, but hard to find). Or you can go ahead and spend another $1200-1500 for a rebuilt trans and engine, and than expect to keep it another 150,000-200,000 miles, giving you much improved reliability and fuel economy. Despite the hassle of a full mechanical make over, where else can you get a fun old car good in snow that deliver that kind of fuel economy, that after the rebuild should last you at least another 100k miles, or more? That would be if the body is in decent shape, otherwise it would not be worth it if it was all beat up and rusty.

that was my descision to keep rebuilding my daily driver: almost 400k miles, two complete engine replacements, and two transmissions (one of them was my careless fault). Along the way I also upgraded to the 4ac engine, larger MR2 brakes, 14" alloy wheels, custom exhaust, etc. As each major component wore out I would replace it with something stronger or better from another model toyota. Right now it is about ready for its 4th clutch (they last about 100k miles each). It has been well worth it, and working on this car is far easier than the other family cars we have, so I can do even major repairs fairly fast and easy. Parts are remarkably low cost too compared to our other cars (Honda, Mazda, Lexus).

I have, and other forum members, delivered decent used Tercel4wd across the country several times to willing buyers because they are still the best used car value you will find. Particularly if you want the 4wd feature in a compact and economical car.
'87 Tercel 4wd SR5 (current engine swap project)
'84 Tercel 4wd (daily driver, with on going mods)
'92 Mazda MPV 4wd (wife's daily driver)
'85 Tercel 4wd DLX auto(daughter's daily driver)
'01 Honda Civic (other daughter's daily driver)
xirdneh
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Posts: 2121
Joined: Thu Aug 04, 2005 11:38 am
My tercel:: 87 tercel 4x4 wagon w/reringed engine, 83 tercel 4x4 wagon w/salvaged engine and 4.1 Diff's
Location: seabeck, washington, USA

Re: 3rd / 4th gear woes

Post by xirdneh »

88 trannys have alum shift forks held to shift shaft with small screw. when screw gets loose it causes hard shifting till it falls out then no 3 and 4 gears. have seen this twice
since shifter is hard to pull out that means cup on end is probably good
tranny will have to be pulled to find out whats wrong
there are videos on youtube showing how to take it apart.
its not difficult
Love those Tercell 4x4 wagons but they sure suffer from road noise.
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SirFoxx
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My tercel:: 1981 Toyota Tercel w/ 7age

Re: 3rd / 4th gear woes

Post by SirFoxx »

xirdneh wrote:88 trannys have alum shift forks held to shift shaft with small screw. when screw gets loose it causes hard shifting till it falls out then no 3 and 4 gears. have seen this twice
since shifter is hard to pull out that means cup on end is probably good
tranny will have to be pulled to find out whats wrong
there are videos on youtube showing how to take it apart.
its not difficult
Would the screw falling out make sense with the current problem of 3rd starting to work, and 4th getting worse...?
1988 DLX 4wd Tercel Wagon w/ weber (RIP)
1985 4wd Tercel SR5 (RIP)
1986 Base 2dr Hatch (RIP / PARTS)
1986 DLX 4wd Tercel Wagon with ???
1985 DLX 2dr Tercel Hatch w/manual swap
1981 2dr Toyota Tercel w/7age (RIP)
1981 3dr hatch Toyota Tercel w/Turbo 4AGE
1981 3dr hatch Toyota Tercel SR-5
xirdneh
Highest Ranking Member
Posts: 2121
Joined: Thu Aug 04, 2005 11:38 am
My tercel:: 87 tercel 4x4 wagon w/reringed engine, 83 tercel 4x4 wagon w/salvaged engine and 4.1 Diff's
Location: seabeck, washington, USA

Re: 3rd / 4th gear woes

Post by xirdneh »

probably not
the main thing is you have to take it out to fix it
Love those Tercell 4x4 wagons but they sure suffer from road noise.
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SirFoxx
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Posts: 335
Joined: Sun Feb 05, 2017 5:42 pm
My tercel:: 1981 Toyota Tercel w/ 7age

Re: 3rd / 4th gear woes

Post by SirFoxx »

xirdneh wrote:probably not
the main thing is you have to take it out to fix it
Once it is out and apart, what should I be looking for? This will be my first transmission tear down, so i wont exactly know what to keep my eye out for. Obviously the shift fork issue, but what about worn main shaft / counter shaft bearings?

Current state is that the transmission is being supported with a jack, and the last thing to come out is the input shaft. From the window with the 5 (12mm) bolts, does it pull all the way out of the opening, or does it only pull out so far? I've never heard of an input shaft that pulls out before.
1988 DLX 4wd Tercel Wagon w/ weber (RIP)
1985 4wd Tercel SR5 (RIP)
1986 Base 2dr Hatch (RIP / PARTS)
1986 DLX 4wd Tercel Wagon with ???
1985 DLX 2dr Tercel Hatch w/manual swap
1981 2dr Toyota Tercel w/7age (RIP)
1981 3dr hatch Toyota Tercel w/Turbo 4AGE
1981 3dr hatch Toyota Tercel SR-5
xirdneh
Highest Ranking Member
Posts: 2121
Joined: Thu Aug 04, 2005 11:38 am
My tercel:: 87 tercel 4x4 wagon w/reringed engine, 83 tercel 4x4 wagon w/salvaged engine and 4.1 Diff's
Location: seabeck, washington, USA

Re: 3rd / 4th gear woes

Post by xirdneh »

The input will come out. Not much to grab onto. Large channel lock or vise grip works , I like vice grip. Tranny and engine need to be angled down as far a possible. Oil pan resting on steering rack.
I assume you are pulling tranny only (leave diff aka transaxle in there.)
Love those Tercell 4x4 wagons but they sure suffer from road noise.
xirdneh
Highest Ranking Member
Posts: 2121
Joined: Thu Aug 04, 2005 11:38 am
My tercel:: 87 tercel 4x4 wagon w/reringed engine, 83 tercel 4x4 wagon w/salvaged engine and 4.1 Diff's
Location: seabeck, washington, USA

Re: 3rd / 4th gear woes

Post by xirdneh »

If pulling tranny and diff together as unit it is still much easier with input out. And reinstall goes easier too
Love those Tercell 4x4 wagons but they sure suffer from road noise.
xirdneh
Highest Ranking Member
Posts: 2121
Joined: Thu Aug 04, 2005 11:38 am
My tercel:: 87 tercel 4x4 wagon w/reringed engine, 83 tercel 4x4 wagon w/salvaged engine and 4.1 Diff's
Location: seabeck, washington, USA

Re: 3rd / 4th gear woes

Post by xirdneh »

is it done?
Love those Tercell 4x4 wagons but they sure suffer from road noise.
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