Replacing welded-on muffler despite unsolved gas smell

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stanrob
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Posts: 106
Joined: Thu Aug 30, 2012 3:03 pm
My tercel:: Two 1985 Tercel SR5 4WD, Cal. emission controls, one now a parts car (good engine & transmission, still had full power at 310K), another, a low-rust project car, with 307k miles, from Petros
Location: Wayland, MA, USA

Replacing welded-on muffler despite unsolved gas smell

Post by stanrob »

Hello Gentlemen & -women, here's a problem I'm finding to be a real humdinger.

I've been attempting to troubleshoot my gas smell. California emissions. So many components to check in my old age! I've gotten started but have much more to go. I've already participated in another topic on that issue, so far not finding the gas smell's source. Meanwhile, the muffler has opened up.

I've already patched two holes in that muffler, and a third much bigger one has opened. Clearly, replacement is in order.

I've twice made the mistake of going to muffler shops for replacement. That was before the gas leak. Each time, components were secured by welding. The last muffler shop charged $300 to weld on pipes, hangers, and what turned out to be a cheapo muffler. That was three years ago, low miles, the worst I've ever experienced. I went back and complained to no avail. Now they want $550 to do it again with a new cat (that's ignoring the gas smell issue). They bragged that doing a Prius muffler job was $2000+.

This is such a contrast to my older Detroit cars. I got one Sears lifetime warranted muffler, clamped it on, and got clamp-on free replacements when needed.

I'm trying to figure out how to unhang and removed this welded-on muffler and replace it myself without setting the car on fire. Any ideas?
xirdneh
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My tercel:: 87 tercel 4x4 wagon w/reringed engine, 83 tercel 4x4 wagon w/salvaged engine and 4.1 Diff's
Location: seabeck, washington, USA

Re: Replacing welded-on muffler despite unsolved gas smell

Post by xirdneh »

got an angle grinder with a cutting wheel? or a hacksaw
i have been using those 34.00 mufflers sold at advance and oreilys
they also have fittings going from 1.75 ID to 2OD or 2.125 ID and various sized clamps to suit
you can make the tail piece the same way though welding is better and just useing one clamp at existing pipe connection
need to put a hanger on aft end of muffler , i weld that on using 1/4 dia steel bent with propane(mapp is faster) torch and hammer
Love those Tercell 4x4 wagons but they sure suffer from road noise.
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ARCHINSTL
Goldie Forever
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My tercel:: Goldie is a 1986 SR5 attualmente con Weber/also owned the first T4WD in STL in late '82
Location: Kirkwood, a 'burb of St. Louis

Re: Replacing welded-on muffler despite unsolved gas smell

Post by ARCHINSTL »

What xirdneh wrote, although when I first replaced the muffler on Goldie I used clamps.
When that muffler died, there was also not much left of the tailpipe for a clamp; I wound up replacing all from the manifold back (save the cat) with a Bosal all-in-one (NLA!).
I also used RustOleum High-Temp paint on the whole system and there is nary a speck of rust on it - at least on the outside, and now going on close to 4 years.
See viewtopic.php?f=4&t=12009&p=92331&hilit=bosal#p92331
Tom M.
T4WD augury?
"Oh, do not ask, 'What is it?' Let us go and make our visit."
T.S. Eliot - "The Love Song of J. Alfred Prufrock"
"Now and then we had a hope that, if we lived and were good, God would permit us to be pirates."
Mark Twain
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Petros
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My tercel:: '84 Tercel4wd w/extensive mods
Location: Arlington WA USA

Re: Replacing welded-on muffler despite unsolved gas smell

Post by Petros »

you just need to find another muffler shop, there should be plenty around. Perhaps look at google and Yelp listings to see who is near you that is reasonably priced and does reliable work.

Or as noted above, you can always go the do-it-yourself route.

I have a low cost local shop that i am happy to use, but if I was told it was going to be $500 to fix an existing system, I would do it myself. the local guy here replaced my whole system with 2" galvanized pipe (I supplied the muffler), for about $150.
'87 Tercel 4wd SR5 (current engine swap project)
'84 Tercel 4wd (daily driver, with on going mods)
'92 Mazda MPV 4wd (wife's daily driver)
'85 Tercel 4wd DLX auto(daughter's daily driver)
'01 Honda Civic (other daughter's daily driver)
stanrob
Top Notch Member
Posts: 106
Joined: Thu Aug 30, 2012 3:03 pm
My tercel:: Two 1985 Tercel SR5 4WD, Cal. emission controls, one now a parts car (good engine & transmission, still had full power at 310K), another, a low-rust project car, with 307k miles, from Petros
Location: Wayland, MA, USA

Re: Replacing welded-on muffler despite unsolved gas smell

Post by stanrob »

Despite all of your kind efforts, I fear that I have to give up on this project -- AND on this car!
I hate to use the insulting language mainstream people employ, but I'll say it here: it's a rust-bucket, VERY seriously rusted.
While I've been messing with the muffler, the gas smell has gotten much worse, including right inside the cab.
That smell continues, even when the car has sat for days unused.
Currently the tank is less than half full.
I've come to the conclusion that the leak is at or near the tank. I'm finding this problem out of my reach.
Two days ago, I visited a very humble mechanic who had patched the tank on a 90s-era Corolla owned by a friend.
He crawled under it, couldn't find the leak, but noticed the frame rust. He thinks it's too rusty to drive.
I drove it 16 miles home, enjoying its show of full power in top gear on a long steep hill. What a noise!
In the course of the ride, the muffler's welded-on hanger let go, AND the hanger of the pipe fore of it let go too!
I had to stop and pull it off. Now I have a 2-inch straight pipe, which rides on the sway bar, and a gas leak, all on a rusted frame.
In New England, I don't see any comparable TT4WDs very close by. Perhaps I will call the guy in Maine.
xirdneh
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My tercel:: 87 tercel 4x4 wagon w/reringed engine, 83 tercel 4x4 wagon w/salvaged engine and 4.1 Diff's
Location: seabeck, washington, USA

Re: Replacing welded-on muffler despite unsolved gas smell

Post by xirdneh »

Please do not send to scrapper with transmission in it.
Save that tranny
Love those Tercell 4x4 wagons but they sure suffer from road noise.
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Petros
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My tercel:: '84 Tercel4wd w/extensive mods
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Re: Replacing welded-on muffler despite unsolved gas smell

Post by Petros »

your safety is more important, these cars are not so valuable that one too far gone is worth fixing. If you like the Tercel4wd, for less than a questionable repair, you can fly out west and find a decent one in great shape with little to no rust, and drive it home. I have done that a number of times, and well worth it to find the right car. I do not trust rust repairs on badly rusted bodies, no way of knowing the repairs get all the critical structure, and on one of these cars, it could take way more than it is worth in repair costs to make it safe to drive and operate.

Besides, I like road trips anyway, it just gives me a reason to go on a road trip.

If you plan on buying another Tercel4wd, it might be worth saving the engine out of yours, to keep as a back up future engine. Certainly pulling the transmission (the most valuable part of the car), and ship it to Xirdneh, and we can find you a decent car out west you can come and get it after we check it out and fix it up for you. I just looked at one with a decent body today in fact (offered to me as a fixer, needs some work but I would take care of that before I sold it). There are other local members always looking for decent fixers to get back on the road for someone else to enjoy.
'87 Tercel 4wd SR5 (current engine swap project)
'84 Tercel 4wd (daily driver, with on going mods)
'92 Mazda MPV 4wd (wife's daily driver)
'85 Tercel 4wd DLX auto(daughter's daily driver)
'01 Honda Civic (other daughter's daily driver)
stanrob
Top Notch Member
Posts: 106
Joined: Thu Aug 30, 2012 3:03 pm
My tercel:: Two 1985 Tercel SR5 4WD, Cal. emission controls, one now a parts car (good engine & transmission, still had full power at 310K), another, a low-rust project car, with 307k miles, from Petros
Location: Wayland, MA, USA

Re: Replacing welded-on muffler despite unsolved gas smell

Post by stanrob »

Your sympathy has come right when I need it most. I am truly grateful.

To xirdneh, I'm already in debt to you for that strut base. OF COURSE I'll save the transmission. It's "younger" than the car. It came from my first 1985 which died in 2005 at 194k miles. Now it has another 70k. If you need it, perhaps you can advise of shipping method.

As Petros suggests, this engine also deserves to be saved. Some of its emission components have failed. By the way, I already have a surplus engine with only 100k miles in the 83 Hatchback, also with bad emission components.

To Petros, I'm very, very touched by your ambitious offer. I'm thinking hard about the road travel required. I have a combination of obligations and medical conditions that might get in the way. Maybe there's a way around. Let me think about this, and meanwhile I'll get in touch with the guy in Maine. Nobody close by is using these cars any more.
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Petros
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Location: Arlington WA USA

Re: Replacing welded-on muffler despite unsolved gas smell

Post by Petros »

You know, I have been wanting to drive Instate 90 from Seattle to Boston, end to end. Just as a fun road trip. Perhaps we can work something out. Unfortunately it will have to be next spring, and it sounds like you need a car before than.

But if you can find something else to drive until than, my thought was to find a decent T4wd locally, check it out for you and do any repair or maintenance that need to be done on it. Give it a good cleaning, than plan a road trip to deliver it to you, and fly home. Or perhaps find something there than I can sell when we make the return drive (and save the shipping cost of the transmission by bringing it back with us).

My wife and I have taken road trips this way before, either delivering or picking up cars. Not sure if she will be keen on driving 3100 miles in 30 year old Tercel, but she has done several times before. It will have to smell fresh and clean inside for her to spend 45 plus hours of road time driving from coast to coast, but that we can work out, spend a day cleaning it after all the repairs are done.

There are a number of places I wanted to see in MA, I was actually born in Springfield MA, it was where my parents settled after they first emigrated to the USA. I have no memories of it because they moved to California soon after i was born. Also it might be fun to visit Arlington MA, since I live in Arlington WA (most states actually have a city named Arlington, and I try and visit each one when we drive through each state, just for fun).

What would be your budget to buy a good running Tercel4wd delivered?
'87 Tercel 4wd SR5 (current engine swap project)
'84 Tercel 4wd (daily driver, with on going mods)
'92 Mazda MPV 4wd (wife's daily driver)
'85 Tercel 4wd DLX auto(daughter's daily driver)
'01 Honda Civic (other daughter's daily driver)
stanrob
Top Notch Member
Posts: 106
Joined: Thu Aug 30, 2012 3:03 pm
My tercel:: Two 1985 Tercel SR5 4WD, Cal. emission controls, one now a parts car (good engine & transmission, still had full power at 310K), another, a low-rust project car, with 307k miles, from Petros
Location: Wayland, MA, USA

Re: Replacing welded-on muffler despite unsolved gas smell

Post by stanrob »

Wow, what an amazing offer, and opportunity!

Because there's so much personal, I'm sending the beginning of my voluminous response via private message. Tell me if you'd prefer it posted for all.
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Petros
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My tercel:: '84 Tercel4wd w/extensive mods
Location: Arlington WA USA

Re: Replacing welded-on muffler despite unsolved gas smell

Post by Petros »

we can keep the details private, but just inform the forum of any major developments. We should start a new thread on it if we can get it to work out. both the fix up and the road trip would make a fun thread.

Anyone know of any good t4wd candidates in the seattle area, to fix up and drive to Massachusetts? What I would want is one with a decent body and paint, and reasonable interior, that needs mechanical repairs. It does not need to be perfect, just a good place to start.
'87 Tercel 4wd SR5 (current engine swap project)
'84 Tercel 4wd (daily driver, with on going mods)
'92 Mazda MPV 4wd (wife's daily driver)
'85 Tercel 4wd DLX auto(daughter's daily driver)
'01 Honda Civic (other daughter's daily driver)
stanrob
Top Notch Member
Posts: 106
Joined: Thu Aug 30, 2012 3:03 pm
My tercel:: Two 1985 Tercel SR5 4WD, Cal. emission controls, one now a parts car (good engine & transmission, still had full power at 310K), another, a low-rust project car, with 307k miles, from Petros
Location: Wayland, MA, USA

Re: Replacing welded-on muffler despite unsolved gas smell

Post by stanrob »

Thank you Petros and friends for fanning my hopes! I did have to take mine off the road a couple of weeks ago. The gas smell was everywhere EXCEPT the engine compartment. This is with a less-than-half-full tank. Nobody has found a wet spot. On its last trip home, the depleted muffler fell off and the pipe fore of it lost it moorings and dropped to the sway bar. I also discovered a big hole in that pipe. I've been borrowing my other half's 2007 Corolla when I can. It seems to be a good car, but so big and clumsy, and I certainly couldn't fix it. I'll be looking locally for an inexpensive interim car.
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Petros
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Posts: 11930
Joined: Sun Jan 28, 2007 6:31 pm
My tercel:: '84 Tercel4wd w/extensive mods
Location: Arlington WA USA

Re: Replacing welded-on muffler despite unsolved gas smell

Post by Petros »

the exhaust on your Tercel can be fixed. You just need to find the right muffler shop, pay a bit extra and they can replace the whole system with all stainless steel pipe and muffler, should last the rest of your life.

As for the gas smell, I would bet it is on top of the fuel tank, there is a short length of flex hose that sometimes starts leaking. You will not see the wet spot, it is on top of the fuel tank. It will seep fuel on the top of the tank and evaporating to fill the car and the undeerside with gas smell.

Fix is to remove the fuel tank and replace all the rubber hoses between the fuel tank and the metal fuel lines on the body. It is not likely, but the metal fuel lines can also develop rust and start leaking as well.

good luck.
'87 Tercel 4wd SR5 (current engine swap project)
'84 Tercel 4wd (daily driver, with on going mods)
'92 Mazda MPV 4wd (wife's daily driver)
'85 Tercel 4wd DLX auto(daughter's daily driver)
'01 Honda Civic (other daughter's daily driver)
User avatar
ARCHINSTL
Goldie Forever
Posts: 6369
Joined: Sat Apr 30, 2005 1:52 pm
My tercel:: Goldie is a 1986 SR5 attualmente con Weber/also owned the first T4WD in STL in late '82
Location: Kirkwood, a 'burb of St. Louis

Re: Replacing welded-on muffler despite unsolved gas smell

Post by ARCHINSTL »

The rubber hoses can be replaced without removing the tank.
Tom M.
T4WD augury?
"Oh, do not ask, 'What is it?' Let us go and make our visit."
T.S. Eliot - "The Love Song of J. Alfred Prufrock"
"Now and then we had a hope that, if we lived and were good, God would permit us to be pirates."
Mark Twain
stanrob
Top Notch Member
Posts: 106
Joined: Thu Aug 30, 2012 3:03 pm
My tercel:: Two 1985 Tercel SR5 4WD, Cal. emission controls, one now a parts car (good engine & transmission, still had full power at 310K), another, a low-rust project car, with 307k miles, from Petros
Location: Wayland, MA, USA

Re: Replacing welded-on muffler despite unsolved gas smell

Post by stanrob »

Thank you Petros and Archinstl, I'll give it a go. Archinstl, how do I get at those rubber hoses?
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