Starting Issues Getting Worse...And Charcoal Canister Removal Questions!!

[4wdEconoBox]

I've been having this re-occurring cold start issue. When I first start up my car at the beginning of the day, I pump the gas twice then I crank it up, usually it starts just fine, but sputters and smokes and sounds really bad for the first couple of minutes, and the it evens out and sounds healthy... It started out as a small issure, but today it took me 30 minutes to finally get it started(which is the first time it's ever done this. I sprayed starting fluid straight into the carb and held the gas pedal to the floor and after about 5-10 revolutions it finally started. It wreaked of unburnt gas and smoked pretty bad until it reached operating temp. The only thing I did different was that I filled it up with 93 octane fuel yesterday and drove it for about 30 minutes and then parked it for the night. Once its warmed up and everything, it drives good and has plenty of power, sounds really healthy. If it sits for 30 minutes or so, it also kind of takes a minute for it to start back up. It just keeps turning over and finally hits and starts up. Keep in mind I have to hold the throttle to floor every time. I plugged the AAP vacuum ports this morning hoping it would fix it, but I won't know until tomorrow. I've also been all through the vacuum lines and routing and I am 95% sure that they are right. I've removed the charcoal canister and plugged any associated vacuum lines and I think I've got the vent re-routing done right, but I couldn't ever find any info on if it was done exactly right. Anyone know what might be causing this? If y'all need anymore information, just let me know.

Here's a picture of how I routed and vented the lines for the charcoal canister. Is the hose the red arrows pointing to supposed to be capped or vented? And Is the hose in the green arrow supposed to be vented also? Any info on this would help me out also!

[Mark]

I would have guessed a large vacuum leak in the AAP sending fuel through the vacuum hose into your intake manifold. Vacuum is only applied to the AAP when the engine is cold, so it would make sense that the problem would go away when the engine is warmed up a bit. Was there fuel in the vacuum hose when you disconnected it from the AAP?

[4wdEconoBox]

That was my first guess also Mark, but there wasn't any fuel in it, and just a very faint smell of gas, but it didn't smell strong enough to really concern me. I've messed with plugging the AAP a few times before, and it never made much of a difference, but I figured I might as well leave it plugged this time just to get rid of one possibility.

Edit: Something else I might add that might be another possible symptom. I can't get the fast idle to stop until the car reaches operating temp. I remember on my other wagon, when fast idle was working, all I had to do was tap the gas and it would disengage fast idle. On the wagon in question, no amount of throttle taps, revs, etc. will not disengage fast idle, I just have to wait for it to warm up and then I can tap the gas which finally disengages it. Choke works as it should (I've watched it), but the engine stays around 2500-3000 rpms until its warmed up. I don't know, I'm at my wits end, and I'm not expecting it to be perfect, but I just don't want to get stranded somewhere or end up being late for work again (which is what happened this morning...)

[irowiki]

I had a Tercel doing just that. On cold start (below 40 F) it would run like crap for a minute or two, clouds of gas smoke, etc, smell bad, then finally settle in and fast idle.

A new (used) carb solved it. I even tried that carb again on another tercel and it did the same thing. It sits on my shelf to this day.

Your fast idle linkage may be sticky. There might be a vacuum leak in the cold vacuum circuit somewhere. The throttle positioner might be stuck. throttle cable too tight?

As far as the 30 minute start, you probably just seriously flooded her out.

[Ace]

The canister purge line (red) to the carburetor needs to be plugged. The line that vents the fuel tank (green) needs to vent to atmosphere, preferably through a filter.

Normally I advocate keeping all of the original equipment but I did end up removing my carbon canister because it was plugged and I didn't want to buy parts. It's a hassle to clean them effectively. That fixed my hard start problems when the car had sat unused for several days. But it sounds like you may have multiple issues.

[4wdEconoBox]

Ok well my car is getting worse and worse. The problem is now happening even after its warmed up. For instance, if I drive it say 30 miles, and turn the car off to go inside a store, when I come back out, the car is very hard to start. I have to hold the gas pedal to floor then it will barely start up and it sounds like its only running on one or two cylinders, then after a couple revs it'll start running like normal. It runs fine and has really good power as long as I'm driving it, but if I ever turn it off then I'm in for a world of issues..... What could the problem be? I really need some help or advice on where to start.

I replaced the fuel filter with a new one earlier today, but it didn't help. I've checked my vacuum lines again, everything seemed to check out. I might need to check my timing again, but I'm sure its right. Only two things I can think of is that I either a) need a new carb, or b) need to retorque my head bolts? Do either of these sound logical, I only say head bolts because I've also been mysteriously been losing coolant and oil, I might have small oil leak, so that might explain the loss of oil, but that doesn't explain the loss of coolant. I have to add a gallon or so about once a month and about a quart or so of oil a month also. But I drive this car alot, sometimes 5-600 miles a week.

[xirdneh]

Get another carb somewhere so you can swap and see if it solves the problem.
I say that cause in my experience its always the carb

[4wdEconoBox]

Ok, I just wanted to make sure that I wasn't missing something before I got another carb haha.

[4wdEconoBox]

Ok, so I found a couple things wrong, a big rip in a vacuum line cap going to the distributor, so a good sized vacuum leak. And I found out that I had put a small aluminum washer on the primary jet (103). I'm not sure if that would even cause a problem, but I'm sure it wasn't supposed to be there so it couldn't hurt to remove it haha. I'll let y'all know if anything I did fixed it. I also got just a tiny amount of trash out of the bowl

[irowiki]

Sounds like you're getting vapor lock. Is it hot outside?

[Max1234]

This may be a stupid question, but in terms of removing the charcoal canister, did you go from above or from underneath? I'm trying to figure out the best way to get it out because it seems too big to go either way. Also, does anyone have any experience with replacing the charcoal canister rather than straight-out removing it?

My gas tank stops fueling after about 4 gallons, thinking it's full, and I'm getting a slight gasoline smell when I start the car. I have a feeling it has something to do with the charcoal canister. It doesn't seem like too big of a deal and I may be wrong, but the fuel pump looks fine and all the tubing seems to be okay so I'm not sure what else it may be.

[4wdEconoBox]

I pulled mine straight out from the top, I think the only thing I removed was my air filter housing and it came out with no hassle. The hardest thing was getting the bolts lossened up enough. I can't help you with the other problem though :/

[ARCHINSTL]

When I removed my canister, I simply routed the tube down into the same "chassis" hole from whence the canister would draw its fresh air; I've never smelled fumes, whether inside the car or in the engine bay.
See (pix): viewtopic.php?f=4&t=10253&p=76214&hilit=vapor#p76214
Tom M.

[dlb]

This may be a stupid question, but in terms of removing the charcoal canister, did you go from above or from underneath? I'm trying to figure out the best way to get it out because it seems too big to go either way. Also, does anyone have any experience with replacing the charcoal canister rather than straight-out removing it?

My gas tank stops fueling after about 4 gallons, thinking it's full, and I'm getting a slight gasoline smell when I start the car. I have a feeling it has something to do with the charcoal canister. It doesn't seem like too big of a deal and I may be wrong, but the fuel pump looks fine and all the tubing seems to be okay so I'm not sure what else it may be.

if you only smell gas when you start the car, you're probably flooding it when you start it. only step on the throttle once, then fully release it, and then turn the key. the engine should start easily, and releasing the pedal sets the fast idle linkage on the carb.

if your gas gauge isn't working correctly, your gas tank might actually be full after just 4 gallons. maybe the gauge is telling you it's empty when it's not. there are some threads here on how to clean the fuel level sender, it's very easy as long as the screws securing it aren't rusted to dust.

you shouldn't need to replace your charcoal can, either. just loosen the 10 mm bolts (spray them with pb blaster or some other lube first) and pull the CC out the top. then blow it out with compressed air, following the instructions in the FSM. it's really easy.

[helipilot77]

I'm wondering if sea foam would help. I have been amazed at what it can fix. I think there is a way to draw it into the vaccuum system, I wonder if it would clean out the charcoal canister?